2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries/2,000 Greater and Lesser Mysteries.iso/ufo/paranet/mys02367.txt

Text File | 1994-06-10 | 805.6 KB | 21,759 lines

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 471

                          Thursday, September 5th 1991

Today's Topics:

                               Hudson Valley Tape
                                    Re: ussr
                          Re: How old are the 'greys'?
                               Re: Epilepsy & Dogs
                             Re: CATTLE MUTILATIONS
                                       Hi!
                          Re: Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
                             Re: Hudson Valley Tape
                          Re: Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
                             Re: Hudson Valley Tape
                          Re: Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
                                   VISIT/NASA
                                   Visit/nasa
                                 Re: VISIT/NASA
                             Re: Hudson Valley Tape
                                Re: ALIEN LIAISON
                               Re: New UFO Titles!
                          Re: UFO Conference in Orlando
                      Re:  Mysterious Roar Heard By Some...
                             crop circles in Science

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 3 Sep 91 04:54:00 GMT

Hi Linda --

So, like, what did you think of the radio show? Did you ever get to hear
it? Those turkeys had us come in at 9:30 and didn't put us on until
10:40. They'll be sending me a tape in case you missed it.

I wanna ask you and Loren a favor. It relates to the correspondence I am
having with one Maury Markowitz over on SCIENCE echo. I cross posted his
last message onto ParaNet UFO, and we are all having a good laugh about
it.

Basically Maury and I have been going back and forth for a year and a
half about the Hudson Valley video. If you haven't seen it, it depicts a
circle of white lights followed by one blinking red one. The white
lights appear to be rotating slowly in relation to the red one. There is
no sound, save for the couple who filmed it bantering back and forth. I
maintain that whatever it is, it can NOT be a formation of light
aircraft. There are several dozen reasons for this, but all I need tell
you at this point is that the ST (terminal summary) for that night
showed winds at 10G28 (10 kts gusting to 28). There is not the
slightest variation in the formation, no jockeying for position, etc.
This is further borne out by another tape made by the same couple of a
true formation of aircraft, which was an attempt by some anonymous
pilots to show the locals that all they were seeing was a bunch of
airplanes. In this tape, the engine noise and the variations in the
formation are evident.

Mr. Markowitz counters that not only can the "UFO" tape be a formation
of planes, but that it DEFINITELY IS a formation of planes, and he even
goes so far as to claim to be certain that it is a flight of 152's. (He
originally said they were 182's, but he says his flying club buddies
convinced him otherwise.) I am completely incredulous at this. I flat out
refuse to believe that anyone can identify an aircraft type by looking
at a fifth- or sixth- generation video of a bunch of white lights - which
he says are the cockpit lights - against a completely black background.
Maybe - just MAYBE - you could tell high-wing vs. low-wing. But this
business of arguing whether they are 182's vs. 152's is an exercise in
aviation hubris. I can barely tell the difference in DAYLIGHT, fer
chrissakes!

SO...what I had in mind was this. I want to challenge Mr. Markowitz to
an old-fashioned scientific test, kinda like the ones the Amazing Randi
was so adept at. I need some help devising exactly what I want to do,
but it would be along the lines of taping several aircraft at night and
asking him to identify them. All he will see will be their cabin lights.
I think it should be done on a cloudy night, so that there is no
background from which to judge size, speed, etc. (I am told that there
IS a starry background in the HV video, but it is not evident from the
copy I sent Maury).

By way of posting this message publicly, I am asking other ParaNet users
to help me devise the test. When we're ready to roll, I wondered if you
guys might be interested in making arrangements with some local flying
club to do the flights? Mr. Markowitz will no doubt counter that, how
does he know that I will label the various sequences properly? and I'd
like to have a ParaNet user certify that everything is on the up and up.
"I was present at the taping and participated in the flight
arrangements, and I hereby certify that sequence 2 is the 152" or
whatever.

While you're at it, I would like to arrange for a flying club to view
the HV tape and tell me whether or not it could possibly be light
aircraft in formation. (Which I suppose is the larger point of this
whole exercise, anyway).

Whaddya say?

Jim


--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: ussr
Date: 3 Sep 91 06:14:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <08-30-91 14:40> Danny Brandenburg wrote:

DB>  >we came across some reliable reports that indicate the evidence
DB>  I must first ask your criteria for "reliable".  Were the reports from
DB>  respected scientists?  Were they from locals?  Children?

It is my understanding that there were several dozen reports from locals in
that area that may have pre-dated the report that became famous via Tass,
ie, the pinheaded beings reported by children. Its possible that this report
was the result of local media exposure exciting the imaginations of children
in the area.

DB>
DB>  > sources include Antonio Huneeus and articles in UFO magazine.
DB>      Since I am new to this group I must ask about Antonio Huneeus.

He is a highly respected UFO journalist in NYC, the son of a Chilean
diplomat, who specializes in sighting reports from South America and
overseas. He can be counted on to be level-headed in his reporting, to quote
sources reliably, and to retract unhesitantly information which turns out to
be false.

DB>  Who is he (sorry)?  I would also like to know how articles in UFO
DB>  Magazine get there.  I mean, are the articles submitted by anyone or
DB>  are their professional writers that are employed (no contracted) by
DB>  UFO Magazine? Also, what are the backgrounds of the writers (ie.
DB>  scientists, fiction writers, new agers, psychologists...)?
DB>                 Just wanting some clarification,

For that it is best to wait for a response from UFO Magazine itself, which
I'm sure will be forthcoming on this echo shortly.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: How old are the 'greys'?
Date: 3 Sep 91 05:27:00 GMT

nc>How old is the classic 'grey' description?
nc>
nc>I have in my posession a comic book dated April, 1967 (Flying Saucers,
nc>#1  DELL). The aliens are depicted as being pale white, with large
nc>heads, and large eyes. They are short in stature and look very much
nc>like what we would call a 'grey'; too much to be a coincidence.


The American Indians have stories of beings that fit the Dell description to
a T.  The Native American ledgends of these critters (which were always
nasty prankster) a many hundreds of years old.

Somewhere on my BBS there's a file called "WHEEL.ZIP" that describes the
AmerInd ledgends of the "pranksters".

Also, check out some of Vallee's books, especially Passport to Magonia.  The
parallels between present=day UFO lore and the ancient tales of Sylphs,
Fawns, Leprechauns, Elementals and other creatures.  The similarities are
sometimes striking...

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Epilepsy & Dogs
Date: 3 Sep 91 05:35:00 GMT

SR>Tesla claimed that
SR>CM>he could "hear" his EM radiation...
SR>
SR>'Ringing in the ears' is more likely the possibility.
SR>

Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk.

Do you think the whole idea is ridiculous?

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: CATTLE MUTILATIONS
Date: 3 Sep 91 05:56:00 GMT

TM>  What gets to me about those cattle mutilations is the great care to do
TM>  it so quickly and efficiently.  If satanists are the cause, as is
TM>  implied at times, why do they take such great care to drain every drop
TM>  of blood, to remove organs without significant mutilation of the rest
TM>  of the body.  A mutilation done by satanists would (in my opinion) be
TM>  a lot more messy and crude.
TM>

I've heard & read some pretty wild explanations for Cattle Mutes, but the
Satanist explanations are particularly absurd.  One explanation involved
three groups of Satanists equipped with a large helicopter, night-vision
equipment, and state-of-the-art surgical equipment.  The Satanists required
the night vision equipment to locate the animal, the mobile surgical unit to
mutilate it, and the helicopter to leave the carcass in a *tree*.

Satanists are no more capable of setting up such an operation (M*S*S*H --
Mobile Satanist Surgical Hospital???) than they are of doing good works.
Based on the sort of stuff that's been done in the name of Satan here,
they'd allow the animal to suffer (*not* tranquilize it), butcher it in the
crudest, most amateurish way (no lasers, sorry), and they'd take some
measures to *hide* the carcass.

Also, cows might conceivably be sacrificed by some screwy Zionist groups
(although I've never heard of this being done -- their rabbis are still
arguing over trying the right kind of red heifers to kill.  At last
report, they had sent a delegation to NORWAY to find the right red cows
to slash & burn.) But "Satanists" seem partial to targets of opportunity:
Dogs, cats, goats, sheep, small game, etc. They're most likely to use stray
animals or neighbor's pets in my experience.  Only one "satanist" group I'm
aware of demanded a particuar type of animal sacrifice (German Shepards) and
these people obtained their animals by answering newspaper ads, local pet
shelters, and ultimately by infiltrating the local ASPCA.

4 what it's worth...

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Hi!
Date: 4 Sep 91 05:29:00 GMT


Hi Peggy!  Just a note to let you know that I'm back from the
weekend, and got your messages.  You've got full file access &
some email waiting.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
Date: 4 Sep 91 04:30:00 GMT

RE: in other words it can't be explained
No, I dont' see any other way to "explain" it either.  It's the old
catch-22, if you can't explain it then that somehow means you must
accept someone else's explanation.

--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 4 Sep 91 04:59:00 GMT

RE: Cockpit lights
It didn't hit me when I read it but what pilot in his right mind would
be running at night in formation and turn on WHITE BRIGHT cockpit
lights????  The last thing you would want at night in an airplane is to
turn on anything but the dim intrument illumination lights lest you
blind yourself to other aircraft.  I don't even think a 152 has cockpit
lights of the type that would provide that sort of illumination, I
think is just has downward focussed spot lights likethe reading lights
in commercial aircraft.  I really dont think they would show up much on
a video tape.

--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
Date: 4 Sep 91 05:23:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <09-03-91 21:30> Jim Delton wrote:

JD>  RE: in other words it can't be explained
JD>  No, I dont' see any other way to "explain" it either.  It's the old
JD>  catch-22, if you can't explain it then that somehow means you must
JD>  accept someone else's explanation.

That may well be the implication, but Maury seemed to be saying that the
narrator was over-interpreting Hibbs' statement. I maintain that Hibbs was
merely doing verbal gymnastics to try NOT to say that it was unexplained,
when that is in fact what he meant.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 4 Sep 91 05:28:00 GMT

Never having flown a 152 at night, I really couldn't say. Its been so long
since I've flown, I can't even remember if it HAD an interior light. My
instincts tell me you're right though, whatever it is would not be all that
bright.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
Date: 2 Sep 91 19:00:00 GMT


 > Did Mr. Markowitz view the same tape as I did???  How did he manage to
 > make out what any of the "planes" were going so far as identifing the
 > lead plane as a 182 and the rest as 152's (and not 150's !!)????
 >   He messages seemed to get more and more disjointed as he went on too.
 > As to the supposed absence of further HV UFO reports after the FAA
 > warned to pilots to stop - I didn't think there had been a cessation of
 > further reports??  He may be right in his criticism of the lack of
 > followup and/or good documentation of just exactly what JPL did and
 > didn't do in the way of analysis and written reports.  The lack of
 > written reports from the "experts" seems common unfortunately with far
 > too many "facts" and analysis seemingly being mostly word of mouth and
 > off the cuff stuff.

Markowitz is disjointed.  I have had discussions with him and got nowhere.
Something that is not going to happen with a guy like him either.  It is like
a Phil Klass incarnate.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: EBay.Sun.COM!Michael.Miller
Subject: VISIT/NASA
Date: 4 Sep 91 17:03:59 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Michael Miller - Rev. Admin.)


A while back I posted a question about VISIT and didn't get much response.

So I thought I would give a little information I have on it and then drop
the subject.  So if anyone should come across it again, maybe they will pick
up some more information about it.

VISIT (Vehicle Internal Systems Investigation Team) is a branch of research
being done by NASA to discover the motive power of UFO's.  They hypnotize
abductees and question them about the technical aspects of the ships they
were in, etc.  Through these sources NASA is gaining an understanding of how
these UFO's work.

This is basically what VISIT is and what it does.

If anyone else has heard of anything, I would be interested to hear what you
have.

-mdm




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Visit/nasa
Date: 4 Sep 91 21:24:00 GMT


 > From: EBay.Sun.COM!Michael.Miller
 > Date: 4 Sep 91 17:03:59 GMT
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: info.paranet
 >
 > From: [e-mail] (Michael Miller - Rev. Admin.)


I am checking on this through a NASA source.  I will post the results.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: VISIT/NASA
Date: 5 Sep 91 04:52:00 GMT

nc>A while back I posted a question about VISIT and didn't get much response.
nc>

Hi Michael.  Forgive us -- I haven't heard of VISIT and chose not to
advertise my ignorance.  Sorry.

nc>VISIT (Vehicle Internal Systems Investigation Team) is a branch of research
nc>being done by NASA to discover the motive power of UFO's.  They hypnotize
nc>abductees and question them about the technical aspects of the ships they
nc>were in, etc.  Through these sources NASA is gaining an understanding of how
nc>these UFO's work.
nc>

Okay, now you can be assured that you have everyone's attention.

Do you know:

1) Is NASA *actually* conducting these sessions with abductees?  Or do the
abductees simply *believe* that they're dealing with NASA?

2) Is NASA working with any acknowledged abduction researchers in this work?

3) Does NASA find abductees through these researchers?  Or are the abductees
contacted *independently* of any abduction researcher?  (In other words, is
NASA getting help from abduction experts, or is "NASA" monitoring their
phone conversations & contacting their subjects independently?

4) How long has NASA been in the UFO-building business?  Alternatively, how
long has the "UFO-building business" been associated with NASA?

5) Since NASA can't find the money to redesign the Space Station (and
Congress won't appropriate it), where do they get the funds to pursue this
project?  Or is it just an UnFunded Opportunity?

6) Who *funds* these UnFunded Opportunities, anyway?


Feel free to answer any, all, or none of the above.

Have you read Blum's book Out There?  He makes direct reference to NASA
fronts for "other" activities.

Thank you for a very interesting contribution!  Can you tell us anything
about where you heard this from?

Best,

  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 5 Sep 91 05:40:00 GMT

Hi Jim,

Have captured your message to show to Loren.  Getting late now, so will
try to do it tomorrow.

I read all that banter written by Maury and he sounded like a jerk to
me!  How indeed could he know all that?  There are only 2 planes that I
was able to identify by the sound of their engines:  (1) a Skymaster
which was a twin-engine with the engines in tandum, and (2) a Baron,
because their engines sounded so obnoxious!!

And, Jim Delton is right--pilots do not turn on white cabin lights as
it can cause night blindness and disorientation.

I'll be at Beckley's UFO/New Age whooppeee-do on Sunday afternoon to
catch the 2-5 o'clock speakers (thought for a sec they were on Saturday,
so guess I won't see you after all...)  Maybe I can see ya Monday at E.V.

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: ALIEN LIAISON
Date: 5 Sep 91 05:45:00 GMT

Hi Pete,

I'll have to send you all 3 articles.  The one from MUFON isn't
complete until you have seen the other 2.  (Actually, one is just a
one-page blurb  from the l989 Proceedings from MUFON; the other is
a lengthy article on Big Bob from UFO Universe Magazine.)

Look for a snail...

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: New UFO Titles!
Date: 5 Sep 91 05:49:00 GMT

Hi Paul,

No problem aaabout waiting to see if "Magonia" is available. And I
understand that you have to ask for postage....

I'm in no hurry (back at work again, teaching) so time is limited.{
I'm a patient person.

Thanks a lot!

Linda

PS.  Didn't need those other books at this time.

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: UFO Conference in Orlando
Date: 5 Sep 91 05:55:00 GMT

Hi John,

Well, this weekend features a big UFO conference here.  I could not get
excited by the speakers for the most part.  They put a woo-woo New Age
speaker on with a serious researcher.  How stupid!  Who wants to see
Max the Crystal Skull along with Larry Warren of Bentwaters fame???

I finally decided to go to the Sunday afternoon forum.  It was the best
I could do, and I will report back next week on my findings.

Regards,

Linda


--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: acodkris.larc.nasa.gov!MITCHELL
Subject: Re:  Mysterious Roar Heard By Some...
Date: 5 Sep 91 13:36:21 GMT

From: [e-mail]

John Hicks posted:

+  Also note that the two small swirled circles found in Shoreline Park in Gulf
+Breeze were found the day after a 'skyquake.' What they're calling a skyquake
+is a 10-15 sec. very low rumble that rattles doors etc, but there's no seismic
+trace, and no one acknowledges flying supersonic anywhere nearby.
+  I experienced two back in the early '80s when I lived about 200 miles east of
+Pensacola. Rather eerie. The ground doesn't shake, but walls, doors, windows
+etc. do.

I don't claim to have any answers, but I know that high-performance aircraft
can generate that kind of phenomenon without actually flying.

At Langley AFB in Hampton, VA, there are approximately 1/2 a zillion F-15's
based.  To test the installed and uninstalled engines, a 'hush house' is used.
This is a small hangar-type building with a long tube out of one side for
the exhaust.  The tube (several feet in diameter) ends in a 45-degree ramp,
that deflects the jet exhaust up and away from the immediate surroundings.
While the *exhaust* is deflected, the forces on the deflector set up large-
amplitude, low-frequency vibrations that aren't deflected and can be felt for
miles.  There have been several occassions where people in the community have ]
reported rattling walls and windows, and things falling off of shelves because
of these vibrations.

I'm not saying that this is what causes the mysterious roars, but it seems
that something like this could be responsible.

     Kerry Mitchell
[e-mail]
 - or -
[e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers
Subject: crop circles in Science
Date: 5 Sep 91 13:36:34 GMT

From: [e-mail] (John H. Chalmers Jr.)

There is a two page article on British crop circles in the
News and Comments section of the  August 30, 1991 issue
of Science, the journal of the AAAS. The article
sympathetically discusses the theories and
investigations of Terence Meaden on atmospheric vortices and
the plasma fireball theories of Yoshihiko Ohtsuki form Waseda
University near Tokyo.  Also mentioned is Ohtsuki's article
about miniature fireballs in the March 14, 1991 issue of Nature.

I stress this is not a research paper but rather scientific
reportage. It is, however, even-handed and well-balanced and
gives the names of other scientists who both support and challenge
these investigators.  Meaden himself acknowledges that many
circles are apparently hoaxes, but he has investigated around 1000
circles in Britain.  There are two pictures of circles (one with
Meaden inside) and a diagram of a 1986 Minnesota tornado that
appears to have created a vortex ring of some sort. The
relationship to the circles is not made clear, however

This issue also has an original research paper on the possible
differences of the brains of heterosexual men and both women
and homosexual men.  The N&C section has a longish discussion
of this topic as well.  There is also a note about the National
Academy of Sciences' plans to study the relation between
electromagnetic fields (EMF) and cancer. Other items of interest
include a successful test of a crucial part of modern evolutionary
theory, and an editorial on how badly written laws and regulations
have crippled environmental cleanup, wasting about 40% of the
money so far on legal fees.
--- John




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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 472

                           Sunday, September 8th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                    Re: Ussr
                          Re: How Old Are The 'greys'?
                                 Missing Maidens
                             Re: Hudson Valley Tape
                            Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
                         Blue Grass Crop Circle (part 1)
                          Re: How Old Are The 'greys'?
                                 Upcoming Shows
                             Re: VISIT and questions
                                 forwarded mail
                   Strange Radio Signals From Nearby Stars ???
                             Re: Visit And Questions
                              Greys and Glossaries
                               Re: Epilepsy & Dogs
                             Re: Hudson Valley Tape
                   Strange radio signals from nearby stars ???
                                  Project VISIT

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Re: Ussr
Date: 3 Sep 91 21:10:00 GMT

Danny Brandenburg said:

 > I would also like to know how articles in UFO Magazine
 > get there.  I mean, are the articles submitted by anyone or are their
 > professional writers that are employed (no contracted) by UFO Magazine?
 > Also, what are the backgrounds of the writers (ie. scientists, fiction
 > writers, new agers, psychologists...)?

Danny, the way stories "get there" is by submissions, writers that were
contracted, people wanting to write about the UFO field and researched their
topic, "names" in the UFO field, and yes Psychologists, Medical Doctors,
researchers, former military personal, ministers, police officers, and I guess
somewhere along the line, there may have been a baker or candle stick maker in
there.....<G>  Do we do "fiction"? Nope, we do not. Hope this answered your
question.

Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Re: How Old Are The 'greys'?
Date: 3 Sep 91 21:13:00 GMT

In a statement to Jim Speiser:

 > no>  I have in my posession a comic book dated April, 1967 (Flying
 > no>  Saucers,

and Jim said:

 > That is a VERY important find, Chris. I don't know of anything else
 > going back that far with a description that close.
 >
 > Of course, now Phil Klass will say that anyone who describes the Grays
 > thus just HAS to have read that comic book, and have it buried in their
 > subconscious.

Ok, but do not forget that John Fuller had already written his book on the
Betty and Barney Hill case.  Discriptions of the greys were
included. Could the drawings of the greys been taken from that?

Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Missing Maidens
Date: 5 Sep 91 19:20:00 GMT

To All;

The UFO phenomenon is so vast that someone researching this mystery
can become lost in the huge amount of data that surfaces. Various
newspapers carry strange stories from time to time, but as a rule
I have never found them to print the stranger aspects of the UFO
enigma, with exceptions now and again, ie. the animal mutes.
However that is not always true. The following item was given to me
by former Capt. Guy Kirkwood U.S.A.F. Kirkwood, for those of you
who do not know him, was part of a U.S.A.F. squadron in the mid
1950's that was a part of three missions to intercept and
photograph airborne flights of "saucers" over Utah and Idaho. The
news article (actually a letter to a friend of Kirkwood's) ran in the
San Diego Reader on June 6, 1991. The letter was sent by The
Honorable Dick Carlson, the United States Ambassador to the
Seychelles, to his and Kirkwood's friend, Mr. Bud Ertle, a
businessman in San Diego. Beginning with some homey type items, the
letter ends up posing some very strange occurrences that might -
just might point up what has been happening in other parts of the
globe in reference to UFOs, abductions, mutilations, and missing
persons.

Last but not least, this is F or Y our I nformation.

by Don Ecker

*****************************************************************
From the files of UFO Magazine

From The San Diego Reader
June 6, 1991
Reprinted to the ParaNet Information Service
This may be copied providing this heading remains intact.
All Rights Reserved

From: The Honorable Dick Carlson
United States Ambassador to the Seychelles
United States Embassy
Mahe, Seychelle Islands

Wednesday

Dear Bud,

Patty and I have been giggling our fannies off over the videotapes
you sent us. You are quite right that Hedgecock's face looks like
the surface of the moon. I remember how back in '84 he always
airbrushed his face on the campaign literature and used pictures of
me looking like the fat dork who comes to clean the septic tank.

I give this Ross-Hedgecock Report six months. After that he'll be
lucky if he can do intros for the 11:00 news. The Ross lady's a
peach though.

Looking at ol' Pockmarks reminds me of when I was at KGO-TV in
Frisco in the 60's. We had a weatherman with a raspberry birthmark
the shape of a pineapple covering one side of his face. At KGO this
was OK because he always kept that side to the weather map. Then
when a station in Dago decided to take him on as an anchorman, he
tried covering up the mark with this special makeup, but it melted
under the video lights and that was the end of this guy's career.
Last I heard he was selling Volvos in National City.

You ask if things are getting lonely out here in the Seychelles.
Not on your life. Just the other day we got a communique from State
that our Vice President, Danny Quayle, would be seeing us soon when
he makes his goodwill tour of the Indian Ocean in early '93. If you
can make the visit I'll match you up with Danny for golf. Something
to tell your grandchildren.

TOP SECRET/EYES ONLY DEPT:

Keep this under your hat, but we're having a lot of UFO sightings
in our neck of the world these days. As you know, I'm skeptical
about flying saucers, but if I believed in aliens--and I don't
(except maybe for that little Mexican cutie who kept house for Bill
Cleator)--then I'd have to say that they seem to have chosen the
Seychelles as their new landing pad. The thing is reaching crisis
proportions because native maidens have been disappearing at the
rate of two or three a week, and the rumor among the local people
is that the girls are being whisked away by the aliens for genetic
engineering experiments. (Where do they get these ideas? in my day
we just supposed people were being eaten--you know, like in The
Twilight Zone.)

These little people in the islands are very excitable, of course,
but one of the girls who disappeared was the daughter of the
national spice monopoly's head honcho. Also mysteriously vanished:
a hundred crates of coriander. Maybe Rod Serling was right all
along.

Patty and I keep our camcorder at the ready in case we spot any
aliens, but there's been nothing definitive as yet. If I can sell
an exclusive to CNN it'll be the biggest scoop since I broke the
Renee Richards thing back in '76 when I was with KABC.

Patty says to tell you to look in the Kitty Kelley book and see if
either of us is in the index. We went skinny-dipping with Ron and
Nancy once at Lake Havasu but maybe that's not lurid enough to
write about. Patty and I send our love to Paige and the kids.

Yours,

(signature)

Dick

END OF FILE

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 2 Sep 91 21:56:07 GMT

Jim...

I'd appreciate your cross posting this reply to our associate Maury in the
"Science" echo, as I don't read that one...

Maury,

I'd like to thank you for the best humor I've read in years.

Your taking of Jim to task re the Hudson Valley business is hysterical.

Oh?????  You were SERIOUS in you assertions?  Well, perhaps there are a few
items that we need to clear up.

I find it fascinating that you are well enough versed in aircraft
identification to identify the proported aircraft in the "genuine" tape as
152's and a 182.  Especially in the face of the inability of the analysts at
JPL (who are SUPPOSED to know what they are doing) to do the same.  I am
supposing that you have some evaluative criteria that the other "experts" have
over-looked, and can therefore share with us your reasoning so we may all check
our own copies of the tapes and see if we can see what you are seeing.  This is
called "science"... sharing the particulars of a theory and allowing one's
peers to independently verify your findings.  I look forward to hearing from
you what I need to look for.

Lights attached to a blimp?  That certainly seems to be an interesting line of
inquiry.  How many blimps are in existance?  I have no idea, personally.  The
only ones I personally know about are owned and operated by Goodyear.  I'm sure
there are others, but where would one go to book one?  Could one be flown
without clearances or flight plans? How many people would be "in on this"?
Please explain the support for your theory.

As to the ability to hear sounds, allow me to suggest that you read up a bit on
acoustics and sound propagation.  Any physics text will do.  As a broadcast
engineer, I've had occasion to become a bit more than passingly familiar with
the subject... designing sound reinforcement systems and loudspeaker monitors
takes a bit of knowlege of the field. You will be nothing short of fascinated
to find that sound propagation depends on a NUMBER of factors, and distance is
not the most important of them.  Wind direction, for instance, has FAR more
influence on the distribution of sound than does pure distance.

I could go on, but I believe I have embarassed you enough.  I'm always pleased
to see good, healthy skepticism in ALL areas.  That's how we "do" science.  The
submission of unsupported assertions advances nothing, except the opinion of
those who understand the scientific method that the asserter knows nothing.

Have a nice day.

Doug Rogers

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
Date: 5 Sep 91 06:48:02 GMT


  Interesting. You do know that Phil I. tracked some ultralights to a small
airstrip, right? I have a file from him here somewhere, if you want it. It's
about a year or so old, but might have a bearing.

                                           jbh

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Blue Grass Crop Circle (part 1)
Date: 5 Sep 91 06:49:03 GMT


  Note that last year's Milan, IL circle was also 46.5 feet in diameter.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: How Old Are The 'greys'?
Date: 6 Sep 91 08:01:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <09-03-91 14:13> Don Ecker wrote:

DE>  In a statement to Jim Speiser:
DE>
DE>   > no>  I have in my posession a comic book dated April, 1967 (Flying
DE>   > no>  Saucers,
DE>
DE>  and Jim said:
DE>
DE>   > That is a VERY important find, Chris. I don't know of anything
DE>  else
DE>   > going back that far with a description that close.
DE>
DE>  Ok, but do not forget that John Fuller had already written his book
DE>  on the Betty and Barney Hill case.  Discriptions of the greys were
DE>  included. Could the drawings of the greys been taken from that?



Naw, don't think so...recall that the Hill's aliens were slightly different
from what we're seeing these days. I think they looked more like Mr. Potato
Head, at least from the movie and the drawings I've seen. (Sorry, Don, not
making an Idaho joke here...)

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Upcoming Shows
Date: 6 Sep 91 08:31:00 GMT

I have just learned that the Thursday, Sept. 12th installment of the new
talk show hosted by Ron Reagan (the President's son) will feature UFOs. The
guests include Phil Klass, Stan Friedman and Jacques Vallee. Its my
understanding that this is quite an excellent new program, completely on the
other end of the spectrum from Geraldo & Company. Now if I could only find
out where and when its playing in Phoenix....

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: EBay.Sun.COM!Michael.Miller
Subject: Re: VISIT and questions
Date: 6 Sep 91 16:58:20 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Michael Miller - Rev. Admin.)


Clark,
I will do my best to answer all your questions.  To explain further, the
info I got about VISIT was from a private conversation that took place
about 10 years ago.  The source of the info was a project scientist for
NASA-Ames Research Center and he was working on the Pioneer-Saturn project.
That seems to be the only time I heard of it.  I should think if NASA has
such an ambitious project that it would have become known a bit more publicly.
Even if it is Top Secret.  All the answers I give can only relate to the
info given in the course of the conversation I remember.

+>1) Is NASA *actually* conducting these sessions with abductees?  Or do the
+>abductees simply *believe* that they're dealing with NASA?


According to the info NASA is conducting these sessions.  It may be that
the investigations are done elsewhere and by someone not directly associated
with NASA, but it is NASA who is behind this.

+>2) Is NASA working with any acknowledged abduction researchers in this work?

This I don't know.

+>3) Does NASA find abductees through these researchers?  Or are the abductees
+>contacted *independently* of any abduction researcher?  (In other words, is
+>NASA getting help from abduction experts, or is 'NASA' monitoring their
+>phone conversations & contacting their subjects independently?


I am not sure how NASA finds its subjects.

+>4) How long has NASA been in the UFO-building business?  Alternatively, how
+>long has the 'UFO-building business' been associated with NASA?

The conversation I am referring to took place in 1980.  NASA isn't in the
UFO building business as it is interested in new forms of motive power for
space exploration.  From what I understand, NASA at that time (1980) discovered
that the UFO does not travel from point A to point B in the conventional
sense.  Their technology can create a condition from point A that matches
point B and then they are at point B.  In other words, they don't go from
point A to point B they just tune in to point B from point A and they are there.

+>5) Since NASA can't find the money to redesign the Space Station (and
+>Congress won't appropriate it), where do they get the funds to pursue this
+>project?  Or is it just an UnFunded Opportunity?

This I don't know.

+>6) Who *funds* these UnFunded Opportunities, anyway?

This I don't know, either.


+>Have you read Blum's book Out There?  He makes direct reference to NASA
+>fronts for 'other' activities.

No, I haven't read this book.  I haven't read too much on UFO's.


In regards to VISIT...
I am curious about this research and why not too much is known about it.  I
should think if people were being hypnotized that someone involved would
have said something.  Maybe they don't know they are being investigated by
NASA... I don't know.  Which is why I posted a question about it.  I am
relatively new to this newsletter and since most of the postings are UFO
related, I thought I would ask about this info I heard about back in 1980.
I wanted to see if anyone else has come across anything.

-Michael




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail]
Subject: forwarded mail
Date: 6 Sep 91 17:48:11 GMT



Fireball seen in southeast NH last night (9-5)
_______________________________________________

 Has anyone heard any reports of a meteor or satellite burnup on the
night of 9-5-91?    Last night, as me and two friends were heading north just
by Durham, NH, at approximately 12:05 am (9/6 actually, then), we witnessed a
HUGE trail blazing from south to north.  Since I only saw it from the front
window of my car going north, I can only state that the trail was at least from
90 deg. straight up to the north horizon, where I saw it disappear.  I estimate
that the trail was at most 20 degrees off to the east from straight overhead,
parallel to our course.   It was light blue in color, and varied in width as it
progressed extremly fast to the horizon.     Doing the basic trig, and making
the assumption that the atmosphere starts burning up the meteor/whatever from
a height of 65 to 100 miles, that makes the direct overhead courseline 25 to
35 miles (very roughly) east of our position over the eastern seaboard heading
into/over Maine.    If it was a satellite, as is my guess from its polar course,
it would have to be one of the many polar orbit ones.   Could be a spy sat or
just a weather one (there are a few not in geosynchronous orbit to get closer
looks).   Anyone have any more info or other reports?   Just thought it would
be interesting to see how such things get reported and in what pattern/number
of reports.

    Korac MacArthur  ([e-mail])

End of returned message





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Strange Radio Signals From Nearby Stars ???
Date: 7 Sep 91 04:08:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
 * Originally from Daniel Fischer
 * Originally dated 09-05-91 17:53

From: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Date: 5 Sep 91 14:38:35 GMT
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Radioastronomie, Bonn
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: sci.astro,rec.radio.amateur.misc,dnet.ham,alt.alien.visitors

The following was contained in a text distributed by the German news agency
dpa, which is known for its often incorrect science stories. Nonetheless I'd
like to know what the story is behind the following remarks in a feature
article on NASA's new Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence program:

] In the same way as radio signals from earth reach out for 100 light years,
] signals of this kind can also be detected from outside earth. E.g., the
] radio telescope in Arecibo on Puerto Rico has detected electromagnetic
] pulses from stars close to the solar system, that resemble our radar.
] And Soviet astronomers are marvelling since one year about the origin of
] unusual signals that they have detected from the star Atair, only 17 light
] years away in the constellation Eagle.

+- [e-mail] --- Daniel Fischer --- [e-mail] -+
| Max-Planck-Institut f. Radioastronomie, Auf dem Huegel 69, W-5300 Bonn 1,FRG
|
+----- Enjoy the Universe - it's the only one you're likely to experience -----+

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Visit And Questions
Date: 7 Sep 91 05:01:00 GMT


 > From: EBay.Sun.COM!Michael.Miller
 > Date: 6 Sep 91 16:58:20 GMT
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: info.paranet
 >
 > From: [e-mail] (Michael Miller - Rev. Admin.)


Michael,

I have talked to my NASA source who also recalls something about a project
known as VISIT.  He is checking into this further, and did say that he
recalled that it was some time ago that he recalled hearing about it.

It has been suspected by many that NASA is involved in this type of research,
and that they have a lot more knowledge of it than anyone imagines.  I have
recently reviewed "Alien Liaisons," a book by Timothy Good.  My first
impression of this work is that it is very weak and really stretches the
truth, if there is any.  However, recently, there was a posting regarding a
Radio One program aired in the UK concerning a person hearing on this program
that NASA was sponsoring a project called "Cosmic Journey."  This project was
to be a public exhibition sponsored by NASA, the Department of Defense, the
Pentagon, and presented by the Ringling Bros. Barnum and Bailey Circus
Productions.  Good was supposedly contacted by a circus representative who
attempted to solicit his knowledge and experience to work on this project.
Good turned the reins over to Bob Oeschler, an American UFO researcher in
Maryland, who in turn, made some very interesting contacts via the Pentagon
and such.  He reported many disturbing things occurring in his personal life
as a result of this contact, but the program never launched.  Oeschler reports
that he was taken on tours of some very strange facilities which featured some
very interesting advanced technology, giving Oeschler the impression that our
government was more deeply involved in the alien cooperation scheme than
anyone imagined.  Additionally, Oeschler was shown a photograph of a
supposed-dead alien in a plexiglass-type coffin.  Recently, this photograph
was featured in a tabloid-style television news magazine (I can't recall which
one) as it was shown to a UFO conference in Germany.  Oeschler got the
impression that this was the real McCoy, but couldn't definitively identify it
as such.  While the story sounds incredible, and hardly credible, one must
admit that the connection to NASA is, at best, curious.

I am very interested in hearing anything more you find on this interesting
project VISIT.  Likewise, I will post here what I am able to verify.

Mike

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: uiowa.edu!jrblack
Subject: Greys and Glossaries
Date: 7 Sep 91 05:32:52 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

There has been some discussion lately about the use of the term 'Greys'
to describe one of the alleged UFO races, and questions about how far
back the concept goes.

Here's some food for thought from 'A History of English in its own
words' by Craig M. Carver:

  ELF:  In Germanic mythology, an elf is a supernatural creature, small
  and mischievous ... Old English _aelf_ or _ylf_ is related to Old
  High German _alp_ (evil spirit, goblin, nightmare) and Old Norse
  _alfr_ (elf).  In ancient times, the elves must have appeared to the
  Indo-Europeans as ghost-like apparitions, because _elf_, through
  Proto-Germanic _albiz_, is from the root *albho- (white) with
  reference to the whiteness of an apparition.  In Old English, if one
  was crazy or touched one would be _ylfig_ or 'elf-possessed' ...  And
  to have _elf-shot_ was to have a disease caused by evil spirits or
  elves that supposedly shot people and cattle with elf-arrows.

So the 'elves' known in ancient times were actually apparitions which
came in the night, attacked people and cattle, and caused insanity.
Furthermore, according to the American Heritage Dictionary the 'white'
denoted by the root *albho- is not pure white, because it is used to
describe, among other things, the dull white of leprosy.  So the
'elves' were not actually white but ... grey.

Hmmmmm ...




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: uiowa.edu!jrblack
Subject: Re: Epilepsy & Dogs
Date: 7 Sep 91 05:33:30 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

[e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:

+ Yeah.  I keep coming back to what Tesla said about 'hearing' electrical
+ (really scalar) activity.  About sound, light, and EM radiation being 'all
+ the same thing'.  He made this statement in the early 20s and it got him
+ branded a Grade-A looney by the scientific establishment.

+ I wonder if accidents of birth or actual injuries can endow humans with
+ capabilities similar to your hypothetical psychic dog.  Tesla claimed that
+ he could 'hear' his EM radiation...

For a long time people have claimed they could 'hear' meteors streaking
across the sky, describing the sound as a hissing or crackling 'like bacon
frying'.  Such claims were dismissed by orthodox science as obviously
absurd, since the objects in question were much too far away (typically
tens of miles or more).  Turns out that, in fact, what people were hearing
was not the actual sound of meteors screaming through the air but rather
the electromagnetic disturbance they create, which was operating directly
on the observers' nervous system.  (I believe this was discussed several
months ago in Science News, but I don't have the reference anymore.)

If such is the case, then Tesla's claim to 'hear' EM turns out not to be
so weird after all.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 4 Sep 91 14:31:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <09-03-91 21:59> Jim Delton wrote:

JD> RE: Cockpit lights
JD> to other aircraft.  I don't even think a 152 has cockpit
JD> lights of the type that would provide that sort of
JD> illumination, I think is just has downward focussed spot
JD> lights likethe reading lights in commercial aircraft.  I

That is exactly right. The average 152 has a red focused light that shines
directly on the panel. I'm a pilot. If the notoriously bare-boned Cessna 150
series has a bright white light in the cockpit, I sure never have found it.
--Michael

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!rblack
Subject: Strange radio signals from nearby stars ???
Date: 8 Sep 91 05:31:21 GMT

From: Roger Black <[e-mail]>

The following article is forwarded from sci.astro on Usenet News.

Daniel Fischer <[e-mail]> writes:

+ The following was contained in a text distributed by the German news agency
+ dpa, which is known for its often incorrect science stories. Nonetheless I'd
+ like to know what the story is behind the following remarks in a feature
+ article on NASA's new Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence program:
+
+ ] In the same way as radio signals from earth reach out for 100 light years,
+ ] signals of this kind can also be detected from outside earth. E.g., the
+ ] radio telescope in Arecibo on Puerto Rico has detected electromagnetic
+ ] pulses from stars close to the solar system, that resemble our radar.
+ ] And Soviet astronomers are marvelling since one year about the origin of
+ ] unusual signals that they have detected from the star Atair, only 17 light
+ ] years away in the constellation Eagle.
+
+ [e-mail] --- Daniel Fischer --- [e-mail]
+ Max-Planck-Institut f. Radioastronomie, Auf dem Huegel 69, W-5300 Bonn 1,FRG





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Project VISIT
Date: 8 Sep 91 22:24:00 GMT

I've been seeing some speculation here over the last week or so
about Project VISIT and the possibility that it may be some sort
of secret NASA project to study UFO abductees.

This information is not true.

To find out the truth about Project VISIT one must look no
further than page 14 of the 1980 MUFON Symposium Proceedings.
This is what you will find:

>    The host group for the 11th annual MUFON UFO Symposium is
> Project VISIT.  VISIT is a space age type acronym that stands
> for Vehicle Internal Systems investigative Team.  As the name
> implies, VISIT is a project type group and not a popular
> membership organization like MUFON, CUFOS, APRO, or other
> organizations.  VISIT is a nonprofit corporation consisting of
> volunteers from the Houston/Clear Lake City area having the
> common goal of doing more about the UFO phenomenon.  The group
> was inspired by the NASA operation at the Johnson Space Center
> where Projects Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Skylab anc Space
> Shuttle were successfully carried out using the project type
> approach.

>                       * * *

> ... VISIT membes are seeking consistent, correlative data from
> close encounter and abduction cases.   . . .

>                       * * *

>   The primary focus of the VISIT effort is an engineering and
> scientific study of the internal systems of the apparent craft
> involved in UFO or flying saucer reports; with a secondary
> interest in the physiology of the beings which occupy these
> vehicles.

This article was written by L David Kissinger and John F.
Schuessler.

Because VISIT is located in the Houston area and was inspired by
the NASA project-type approcah, we probably are now hearing
rumors to the effect that it is a NASA project.  It is surely not
a secret project.

                                           --  John

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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 473

                          Tuesday, September 10th 1991

Today's Topics:

                             Re: CATTLE MUTILATIONS
                                 Re: OLD TITLES
                             Re: HUDSON VALLEY TAPE
                               WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
                          Re: How old are the 'greys'?
                          Re: Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
                                Weekly World News
                                    UFO Tape
                               HUDSON VALLEY TAPE
                               WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
                                 Upcoming Shows
                       crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
                                     CIRCLES

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: CATTLE MUTILATIONS
Date: 6 Sep 91 05:22:14 GMT

As for why Satanists would do anything, I don't know? I tend to think the
cults are getting blamed for things they are not responsible for, because of
the fear it puts into peoples minds. Scapegoat comes to mind.

What you mention about the blood drained, and other questions, makes it
appear that some local groups are not the cause. Whatever the solution, it's
almost sure to be more than simple.

I have to repeat "crude" tools because they are not really crude. The lithic
chipping can produce edges down to the thinkness of (or should I say
thin-ness?) microns. If I could locate the source I would confirm my memory
that one doctor claims, down to the edge which is molecular thickness. A
surgeon uses these instead of normal surgical instruments, and claims better,
cleaner cuts than the best high-tech knife we have. I don't think they beat
lasers of course, I mean mech. devices.

It's only offered up as information that may not be considered since
sometimes puzzle parts are from diverse fields. I only happen to be an
archaeologist because of hobby interests, no formal classes. I have done free
work for the Milwaukee County Public Museum for a couple of years, dealing
mostly with lithic debris and cataloging materials.
--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: OLD TITLES
Date: 6 Sep 91 05:29:27 GMT

I did a library search of the online catalog for Shipwrecks, etc. and still
can't find it. Asked at stores, and no listing. Someone here told me the
title, so believe it's out there somewhere. Search for Oblivion did nothing
for me either. I did find a private printing of Great Lakes shipping
disasters. Maybe it's a start. Bermuda Triangle turned up nothing new that
has not been used by the major authors for the last 20 years. (I'll leave
that comment alone for now)

Gateway To Oblivion?
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: HUDSON VALLEY TAPE
Date: 6 Sep 91 05:39:47 GMT

This is great! A logical debate, with tests of evidence. As for telling a
182 from a 152 against a similar sky, under same conditions. I'd like to see
them do it. I hope this challenge flys... (BTW what's a 182?)

OK maybe they can tell something in the daylight, I don't even know it
exists, but again, at night by the cockpit and wing lights? Doubtful.

Go for it.
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
Date: 6 Sep 91 15:10:26 GMT

After seeing your recent messages about Cooper, Lear, and others, I wondered
what happened to "ICUFOR" with Brian Myers and Tina Choate? Nothing since
1990, or did I just miss it?
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: How old are the 'greys'?
Date: 2 Sep 91 22:52:00 GMT

Hi Chris,

Would you please send me a copy of one-two pages of that comic book you
have showing the "gray alien?"  I'll be happy to send $ome ca$h to
defray the postage and copy cost.  Can you give me an address, or do
you want mine first?

Thanks, and best regards,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
Date: 7 Sep 91 15:31:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <09-04-91 23:48> John Hicks wrote:

JH>    Interesting. You do know that Phil I. tracked some ultralights to a
JH>  small airstrip, right? I have a file from him here somewhere, if you
JH>  want it. It's about a year or so old, but might have a bearing.

Yes, I'm aware of that. It was what convinced him that there were two things
going on at once: (a) an object of unknown origin, and (b) some pilots
goofing around. At least some of said pilots were operating from Stewart Air
Force Base, which was supposedly closed. The pilots have certainly thrown a
monkey wrench into the whole deal, but the object remains unexplained.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ucscc.UCSC.EDU!sco!robertc
Subject: Weekly World News
Date: 9 Sep 91 20:52:22 GMT

From: Robert Chansky <[e-mail]>

This one cracked me up when I saw it at Safeway last night.
The headline read something like: 'NASA SHUTTLE PILOTS RESCUE ALIEN AND
BRING HIM DOWN TO EARTH!'  The article included AMAZING PHOTOS, as well.
One in particular showed a group of shuttle pilots leading an alien -- looks
like the description of those greys everyone here talks about -- down the
shuttle gangplank.  Now, the really good part was the inset photo, which
showed exactly the same picture, but without the alien -- just a space
between the first shuttle pilot and the rest.  The caption under *this* photo
says 'NASA re-released this crudely retouched photo to cover up the alien
rescue!'

Then there was another one showing the alien with George Bush in what looked
like one of those stand-up cardboard cutouts you can get your picture taken
with, at malls and such.

Probably not the preferred discussion matter for paranet, but I found it so
funny I thought I had to send it on.





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: UFO Tape
Date: 7 Sep 91 15:42:00 GMT

   You're not going to like me very much, but this SHOULD be public...

I still like you, Maury, and I'm very glad you made it public. You'll
see why in a moment.


  A police officer chased one of the objects around the back roads until
he watched it land, in the form of airplanes, at the local airport.

  The bulletin board at the airport sported "UFO burger, with
unidentified flying sauce"

  All meetings about the UFO's were well attended by pilots

  Several pictures of stickers etc reading "UFO's, do it better!" were
to be found in pilot's homes.


All of which says that some pilots were very interested in the UFOs.
Maury, ALL the pilot activity you mention above took place AFTER the
initial spate of object sightings, at least as far as we know.


  In the first tape, the single "famous" object is to be seen, it
  consists of a ring of 6 lights with one "leading" them that flashes.
  After viewing the tape, I still have no trouble stating, that in my
  opinion, that these can EASILY be explained as airplanes.
  Furthermore, seeing as I have seen planes from just about every angles
  as a skydiver, I could even make an ID as 152's. I did rie to Jim's
  challenge, and took the tape to the jumping club, there the pilots
  (oops, that should be 182's above) pointed out that I was wrong, the
  circle was probibly 152's, and the lead was a 182, easily identified
  by the flashing light on the wing (of which, our 182, CF-NBW sports
  one).

This is absolute nonsense. I am assured by several people that there is
no way to make a positive identification of an airplane type based on a
formation of singular white lights on a black background. Possibly you
can tell high-wing from low-wing, but this charade of 182 vs. 152 is
hogwash. If you persist in this exercise in aviation hubris, I shall
challenge you to prove your claim. A simple scientific test of your
powers of aircraft identification is, at this moment, being devised by
some of my comrades on ParaNet. We're itching to administer it to you.
Are you game?

   Then they also talked to a guy at JPL.  Jeez, you thought the
   creationists took stuff out of context!  The guy comes right out and
   states that he is sure these are NOT spacecraft (to paraphrase), and
   says simply that while airplanes is given as the explaination for the
   one film "and I see no reason to disagree", there is no explaination
   GIVEN for the second, and he sees no reason to give one.  The narrator
   then comments "IN other words, it remains unexplained".  OH COME ON!!!
   I'd SUE if they did that to me on a show!

Excuse me, but how do YOU interpret Prof. Hibbs' admittedly obfuscatory
statement? If he DID have a reason to give an explanation, don't you
think he would have given one? He is a member of CSICOP, after all, and
CSICOP's primary mission is to try to explain paranormal claims in
fundamentally normal terms. Is it not therefore safe to assume that,
since he had no reason to give one, he did not have one to give? And if
a JPL scientist lacks an explanation for an anomaly, and no one else of
comparable stature has one, DOES IT NOT THEREFORE REMAIN UNEXPLAINED? Or
did you expect the announcer to know, back in 1988, that Maury Markowitz
would have a ready explanation?

As for him being "sure these are NOT spacecraft," I envy him his
certitude.

   Here's the neat part.  The second show talks about itself a little,
   and how they were going to explore things like faith healing, metal
   bending etc. Great.  You guys have got to here the line he says at
   the beginning,  while completely correct, it's one of those old
   "well, it's just a THEORY" things... where have we heard that before.

Another typical tactic of the debunker: the claimants are to blame for
the production values of any TV show that showcases their claim. This
one happened to be quite an excellent program, even by skeptics'
standards. Each segment was followed by a panel discussion that included
an appropriate CSICOP skeptic, something no prime-time show has ever
assayed to do in the past. (The show, INTO THE UNKNOWN, was a failed
pilot, alas).

   ANYWAY... they get to one guy how stars describing the object that he
   saw as a triangle, then they show you some pictures that he drew of
   it... hmmm. funny, looks just like the one that the first tape showed
   as being an obvious fake!  At least THEY got it on tape!  My sister
   and I started laughing so hard we were crying!

Again, you're putting the cart before the horse. Most of the "object"
sightings, and all of the known formation sightings, were of the wedge
shape. The object was sometimes lit in a wedge-shaped outline, sometimes
not, but always was visible as a wedge or arrowhead or boomerang against
the might sky.

   At the end came the REAL hit... they get one sceptic (the guy who
   writes for AW&ST, I forget his name) to talk abut it.  He says that
   it's funny, because he was talking to one of the bosses at the FAA
   and was asking him why they let the pilots get away with these
   stunts.  Well, apparently I was wrong, there is no law againced it.
   So he points out that if one of these guys crashes and someone dies,
   he's going to be on the Hill the next morning trying to explain why
   they didn't stop it. The next day, a FFA guy goes out to the airport
   and tells them to lay off.  Not one UFO has been seen since.

And now we come to the part where you might not like ME too much, Maury.
Your unquestioning citation of Philip Klass' statements points up one of
the basic problems with skepticism as it is practiced in some quarters:
the skeptics are never willing to question their own tenets, nor their
own practitioners. Skepticism, in order to be truly useful, MUST be
self-referencing. It is not fair to question whether a UFO witness is
telling the truth unless you are also willing to question whether a
debunker is telling the truth.

You see, Mr. Klass' statement was not just false, it was demonstrably,
palpably, undeniably false. It is so false as to hold no resemblance for
the truth whatsoever. Not only did the sightings NOT stop, they did not
even subside appreciably. (I say this with no small amount of surprise:
Klass obfuscates, he misdirects, he dances around the issues, but
out-and-out misstatements of fact are not his forte'.) I purposely
included the Klass segment, not only for fairness' sake, but to see if
you would take the bait. You did.

    a)  Aliens can get sued by the FAA and thus respect the ruels..
    b)  They cannot fly during the day...
    c)  They can metamophize into airplanes in flight...

Let the record show that Maury Markowitz, and not Jim Speiser, said the
"A" word first. 15 yards, Ridicule of a Straw Man Argument, First Down
Speiser.

Continued at a later date....






--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HUDSON VALLEY TAPE
Date: 9 Sep 91 16:45:00 GMT


 > This is great! A logical debate, with tests of evidence. As for telling
 > a 182 from a 152 against a similar sky, under same conditions. I'd like
 > to see them do it. I hope this challenge flys... (BTW what's a 182?)

 > OK maybe they can tell something in the daylight, I don't even know it
 > exists, but again, at night by the cockpit and wing lights? Doubtful.

 > Go for it.


See my cross-posted reply to Markowitz.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
Date: 9 Sep 91 16:45:00 GMT


 > After seeing your recent messages about Cooper, Lear, and others, I
 > wondered what happened to "ICUFOR" with Brian Myers and Tina Choate?
 > Nothing since 1990, or did I just miss it?

They are still in business, as far as I know. They are the current stewards of
the old APRO files.

Jim

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Upcoming Shows
Date: 10 Sep 91 06:26:00 GMT

Jim Speiser said:

 > I have just learned that the Thursday, Sept. 12th installment of the new
 > talk show hosted by Ron Reagan (the President's son) will feature UFOs.
 > The guests include Phil Klass, Stan Friedman and Jacques Vallee. Its my
 > understanding that this is quite an excellent new program, completely on
 > the other end of the spectrum from Geraldo & Company.

I heard from Dave Aaron at the UFO Clearinghouse that the Reagan show will
air in two parts, Thursday 9-12, and Friday 9-13. Also, Reagans show called
the magazine, and I spoke to one of the producers. It seems that they ( from
what she said ) were going to go into some "new age" beliefs, etc. At any rate
we did not get involved. It sounded like they might be playing it for
sensation. Will have to wait for the finished project but it should prove
interesting.

Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
Date: 10 Sep 91 09:32:48 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

There was an AP report in the local paper today about two men who claim to
have been responsible for the rash of crop circles in England. The
newspaper which reported it said that it had the men produce a circle and
then invited Delgado to look at it.  Delgado said, 'No human could have
done this.'  After being told the truth, he said it was 'a great con and a
great dirty trick,' and 'I was taken for a ride like many other people.
But if it wasn't me who was duped, it would have been someone else later
on.  This was obviously a great joke lasting years, but somewhere or
another it would have been exposed.'

However, this is where any resemblance to sanity ends, in my opinion.  The
article also says that the hoaxers 'gave detailed information about how
they planned and executed each design since the late 1970s.'  Either they
only meant the most elaborate and sensational designs and neglected to say
so, or the claim is stretching credibility.  We're talking about a *lot* of
circles for men in their 60s.  Furthermore, the newspaper makes the claim
that 'the wheat was bent down rather than broken so farmers could still
harvest the crop.'  I fail to see the difference, from a harvesting
standpoint, between bending it and breaking it.  I have also heard it
mentioned that the grain in which circles are formed is unharvestable.

But that is only half of the story.

I had hardly finished reading the newspaper when I saw the subject on the
news on a local ABC affiliate. This report, unlike the AP report, did
mention that some people (I believe they even said some *scientists*)
didn't believe that the hoax theory was valid.  In fact, they interviewed
*Delgado* and he said that he didn't believe it!  What happened?  Damage
control, or just a delay in realizing that the hoax claims were unlikely?

It will be quite interesting to see how this develops in the next few days.
I hope we can get a report from Robert Trevelyan or someone else who lives
closer to the subject. I suspect we won't hear any more about it from the
American media.

Trivia/Comic Relief/Hail Eris! Department:  Consider this.  The confession
apparently came about as a result of the hoaxers being upset that people
were making money selling books about the hoax.  However, the confession
apparently fails to account for all of the evidence for the phenomenon.
What other bothersome phenomenon and individual, loosely connected to
UFOlogy, does this resemble?  (This came to me after reading the article
about five times.)

--
  *  From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Dreamline')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: CIRCLES
Date: 11 Sep 91 06:26:00 GMT

The following article appeared in "The Advertiser" ( A South
Australian daily newspaper) on September 10, 1991.
----------------------------------------------------------

HOAXERS ADMIT RUNNING RINGS ROUND SCIENCE

LONDON: Two English artists claim they have made most of the
mysterious "corn circles" found in British fields in recent years.

They say they made them  "with two wooden boards, a piece of string
and a....sighting device attached to a baseball cap".

Mr Patrick Delgado, a leading expert on the mysterious circles which
have baffled the world for a decade, said it looked as though he and
countless scientists had been "duped".

The two men, Mr Doug Bower and Mr David Chorley, from Southhampton,
gave the Today newspaper detailed information about how they
painstakingly planned and executed each design since the late 70s.

Mr Bower said he was living in Australia when farmers put a few
circles in crops in Queensland as a joke.

He and Mr Chorley had hit an idea of doing the same while sitting in
a pub "wondering what we could do for a bit of a laugh".

After they made new patterns in a field near Sevenoaks, in Kent, Mr
Delgado inspecte the patterns and said they could not have been
created by human hand.

He was later introduced to Mr Bower and Mr Chorley who explained how
they made them.

"I was taken for a ride like many other people", said the author of a
series of international bestselling books on the phenomenon, which
many said was the handiwork of extraterrestrials.

"But if it wasn't me who was duped, it would have been someone else
later on. This was obviously a great joke lasting years, but
somewhere or another it would have been exposed."

He said: " I know it's a great con and great dirty trick, I accept that fact."

Mr Delgado said he had called a conference of fellow corn circle
"experts" for today a secret location to disccuss the revelations.

END

--------------------------------------------------------------------


Does anybody want to subsribe to "The Cerealogist",  the  English Journal for
Crop Circle Studies?


--
Vladimir Godic - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 474

                         Thursday, September 12th 1991

Today's Topics:

                               Hudson Valley Tape
                                   BeckleyCon
                                 Re: VISIT/NASA
                          Re: UFO Conference in Orlando
                               Hudson Valley Tape
                               Hudson Valley Tape
                        Mysterious Roar Heard By Some...
                        Mysterious Roar Heard By Some...
                               HOW ABOUT THIS ONE?
                               Re: Epilepsy & Dogs
                            Re: UFO Conference in Orl
                                  Questions...
                    crop circle researchers become skeptics!
                                  Crop Circles
                                   UFO Seminar
                     Re: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
                            Re: Greys and Glossaries
                                 Re: BeckleyCon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 10 Sep 91 16:43:00 GMT

Hi, Doug...

I cross-posted your message today.



 > Lights attached to a blimp?  That certainly seems to be an interesting
 > line of inquiry.  How many blimps are in existance?  I have no idea,
 > personally.  The only ones I personally know about are owned and
 > operated by Goodyear.  I'm sure there are others, but where would one go
 > to book one?  Could one be flown without clearances or flight plans? How
 > many people would be "in on this"?  Please explain the support for your
 > theory.


Well-stated, however it was not Maury's theory. He was quoting from the letter
that JPL Director Lew Allen wrote. Allen's guess was valid, given the cursory
examination he gave the tape. It just happened to be wrong.

Jim

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: BeckleyCon
Date: 10 Sep 91 17:58:00 GMT


This past weekend Phoenix was invaded by the third annual National New Age and
Alien Agenda Conference, otherwise known as the BeckleyCon. I had a hand in
starting this tradition two years ago, when it was part of the National UFO
Conference. This year the gathering was held at the Airport Holiday Inn in
Phoenix. Looked to me like about 250 people showed up, about average for a
Beckleycon.

As the name implies, the event is geared more towards the New Age/Spiritual
side of things, and attracts mostly crystals/pyramids/channelling/psychic
reading types. As usual, however, Beckley was careful to sprinkle it with a few
nuts-and-bolts people, such as Guy Kirkwood, Capt. Kevin Randle, and Larry
Warren. Warren, as you might know, is the most outspoken witness to the
Bentwaters Incident of 1980, which ranks up there with Roswell in terms of
importance and evidential value. He is the source of great controversy, as he
seems to be the only witness to claim to have seen "entities", and claims that
Wing Commander Gen. Gordon Williams was present and actually communicated with
the entities.

At the last minute, another Bentwaters witness, John Burroughs, was placed on
the schedule. Burroughs first came forward to speak with investigators two
years ago, at the same conference. Jenny Randles told me that four hours of
conversation with Burroughs was more informative than 8 years of research.
Burroughs demonstrated his intimate knowledge of Bentwaters in a 2 hour
workshop with Larry Warren, who was gracious enough to provide some of his time
to Burroughs. Despite their differences on some of the important facts, the two
complemented each other well in their public presentation, neither wishing to
distract people from the basic fact that "Something Happened Out There" (the
title of Burroughs' upcoming video, which I am helping produce).

Portions of an interview with Burroughs will be placed on ParaNet in the near
future; also available from this node is a GIF picture of Burroughs. (BURROWS.
GIF - note spelling).

Burroughs also appeared on several local radio stations, including a three-hour
stint on KFYI, in which he drove home the need for people to get off their
fannies and demand more information on important cases like Bentwaters. He
shared the mike with Capt. Kevin Randle of Roswell fame, who provided the
listening audience with a welcome respite from the ravings of Bill Cooper, who
had appeared on the same station two hours earlier. (Cooper was also on the
roster of speakers at the conference.)

I managed to miss all the other presentations at the conference, mercifully I
am told. Linda Bird might be able to provide some hysterical details on the
workshop of one Harley Byrd (no relation I'm sure), who supports the Hollow
Earth Theory. A Crystal Skull named Max drew so many attendees that Beckley had
to quickly organize another workshop to accomodate them all...this while the
Bentwaters presentation drew about 4 paid attendees.

The highlight of the conference was the arrival of a 9-foot-tall alien, who
serenaded the lounge lizards with "Johnny B. Goode" (sang through a special
effects box located on his chest). Also on hand: Al Bielek, Brad & Sheree
Steiger, Michael Lindemann, and as always, the Supreme Commander, James Moseley
- who, with the retirement of Hal Starr to Mexico, has become the Dean of
Active Ufologists (a title he may share with Len Stringfield).

What a party!

Jim

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: VISIT/NASA
Date: 11 Sep 91 04:32:00 GMT

I heard that Ford was hypnotizing chevy owners to try and find out how
the propulsion system on a chevy works.....The VISTA thing sounds a
little far-fetched to me but who knows...

--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Re: UFO Conference in Orlando
Date: 7 Sep 91 21:39:00 GMT


 LB> woo-woo New Age speaker on with a serious researcher.

  Yeah, I know what you mean. At least the guys who put on the Orlando
conference didn't do that.

                                                jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 8 Sep 91 20:57:08 GMT


 > It didn't hit me when I read it but what pilot in his right mind would
 > be running at night in formation and turn on WHITE BRIGHT cockpit
 > lights????

  Now that you mention it, I've never seen an illuminated airplane cockpit,
and I live right under approaches for two airports.

                                           jbh

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 8 Sep 91 21:02:09 GMT


 > Lights attached to a blimp?

  Just FYI, we now have two internally-illuminated advertising blimps flying
around central and south Florida. Since the tail section isn't illuminated, the
blimps at a distance appear to be a glowing disc seen on-edge or a cigar shape
with a couple of flashing white lights.
  A few hometown newspapers have published touristas' reports of the ufos they
saw while they were visiting Disney World.
  As for hiring one of these blimps, all it takes is enough money.

                                           jbh

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Mysterious Roar Heard By Some...
Date: 8 Sep 91 21:05:10 GMT


 >  To test the installed and uninstalled engines, a 'hush house' is used.

  In my case, the nearest AFB was at least 100 miles away.
  However, since there's a couple of bases in the Pensacola area, your
explanation of the "skyquakes" might just be right.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Mysterious Roar Heard By Some...
Date: 8 Sep 91 21:06:11 GMT


 > At Langley AFB in Hampton, VA, there are approximately 1/2 a zillion
 > F-15's

  Also, now that I think about it, there have been quite a few reports of
"mystery skyquakes" in North Carolina and Virginia too.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: HOW ABOUT THIS ONE?
Date: 10 Sep 91 08:27:16 GMT


   A newspaper said Monday the mysterious wheatfield circles in southern
England that have baffled scientists for years were a hoax created by two men
who have come forward to claim responsibility.
   The tabloid Today said Douglas Bower and David Chorley of Southampton
contacted the newspaper and gave detailed information about how they planned
and executed each design since the late 1970s. The newspaper said it paid no
money in connection with the story.
   Some people were convinced the circles were created by extra-terrestrials.
Patrick Delgado, author of two books on that theme, said it looked as if he
and many others had been duped.
   Bower said he had lived in Australia during a period when similar circles
were put in crops in Queensland "as a joke," Today said.
   The two men hit on the idea of doing it in England while sitting in a pub
"wondering what we could do for a bit of a laugh," Bower was quoted as saying.
   Today said it had checked the men's circle-making skills in a field and
then invited Delgado to see the result. His response, the story said: "No
human could have done this."
   The men used four-foot planks with rope reins to flatten the wheat and
produce circles, the story said. Straight lines were made using a simple wire
"gunsight" on a baseball cap that allowed the men to walk while aiming at a
distant object, it said.
   The wheat was bent down rather than broken so farmers could still harvest
the crop, Today said.
   The vast circles and geometric patterns were "a great con and a great dirty
trick," Delgado told Press Association, the British domestic news agency.
   "I was taken for a ride like many other people. But if it wasn't me who was
duped, it would have been someone else later on. This was obviously a great
joke lasting years, but somewhere or another it would have been exposed,"
Delgado was quoted as saying.
   Today said the two men, both in their 60s, were tired of people making
money from the circles, an apparent reference to books that have been sold on
the subject.

===> Quick open minded review. 1) Do these men have access and live near
enough to have created the rash of circles lately in any particular area? 2)
"detailed information"? and were paid no money 3) Delgado "it looked as if he
and many others had been duped" (sure he sold his two books!) 4) Were there
circles in Queensland during the claimed period? 5) Delgado "No human could
have done this" (after seeing their work) 6) "... were tired of people making
money from the circles"

I won't light the fuse just to have this blow up in my face, but it looks as
though we have either an answer, or someone taking credit for something they
did not do. The problem is that it appears that Delgado accepts their methods
and claims. I expect next we'll hear that after all his serious research,
he's been bought off or something? (or after selling many copies of two
books, he's moving on?) I'm sure there is more to come in the near future.
Lets see about the molecular changes, UFO's, planks and reins, wires on ball
caps, and the rest.

And now back to our nice simple round circles. No matter what, another
controversy is going to increase echo traffic.

My personal opinion, is the same as always, I'll wait and see about this
before I make a firm conclusion. If Delgado is willing to accept them, it's
looking pretty accurate.
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: Epilepsy & Dogs
Date: 5 Sep 91 17:18:00 GMT

CM>SR>CM>he could "hear" his EM radiation...
CM>SR>
CM>SR>'Ringing in the ears' is more likely the possibility.

CM>Do you think the whole idea is ridiculous?


The ideas he had...I leave that up to the 'Telsa' experts to see if any
of his more esoteric theories pan out .  If you mean the ability to
"hear" EM?  Yes I do.


--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: Re: UFO Conference in Orl
Date: 7 Sep 91 21:41:00 GMT

LB>excited by the speakers for the most part.  They put a woo-woo New Age
LB>speaker on with a serious researcher.  How stupid!  Who wants to see
LB>Max the Crystal Skull along with Larry Warren of Bentwaters fame???

  This is the exact same kind of ignorance that people involved with
  investigating the UFO mystery have to put up with.  I am not telling
  you to believe everything that you come across, but to keep an open
  mind to what comes up.

  This is a PERFECT example of why the media and others shy away from
  UFO discussions-  they do not want to be "associated" with the
  "woo-woo UFO believers" and be called a tabloid.

                                                        Tyson
 * SLMR 2.0 * From an explorer.............


--
Tyson Mitchiner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (John Hrusovszky)
Subject: Questions...
Date: 11 Sep 91 02:27:44 GMT

Awhile back, someone mentioned an incident about a NASA control-room
man that had made a statement something to the effect of "...we now
have the UFO on our screens..." or something like that.  I have been
searching high and low to find some actual documentation on this, but
to no avail.  Can anyone help me out?



--
John Hrusovszky - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: YALEVM.YCC.Yale.Edu!conncoll.bitnet!gateh
Subject: crop circle researchers become skeptics!
Date: 11 Sep 91 14:31:20 GMT

From: [e-mail]

I've been following the crop circle phenomenon with some interest,
and so was very interested by the admission of hoaxing by the two
gentlemen in the UK.  While I have little or no opinion myself on
the subject, I must say that I found myself stricken with hysterics
upon hearing that crop circle researchers had suddenly become
*skeptics* themselves (notice the small 's', so as to avoid any
possible confusion with or controversy over the term with one right
honourable R. Moen ;-), and were refusing to accept this as possible.

I get the sense that these folks have about the same level of
integrity as messrs. Pons and Fleishmann.

It's truly unfortunate that phenomena which don't readily fit into
the accepted description of the world attract so many folks of
questionable skills, motivations, interests, and integrity.  In
light of this I am quite happy to have found this group, which
appears to contain a couple of individuals who are quite the
opposite (a certain M.C. comes to mind :-).

Now back to lurking...   Cheers!  - Gregg

Gregg TeHennepe       | Academic Computing Services         | This is the life
[e-mail] | Connecticut College, New London, CT | you have -V. Reid




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: yak.boeing.com!rjp2011
Subject: Crop Circles
Date: 11 Sep 91 17:34:13 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)

The obvious thing to watch for now is any new crop circles.

Maybe they've confessed.  The obvious way to prove a man's innocence
of a serial crime is to watch the crime be committed after he's in
custody.

If we hear of new circles, can we assume that the likelyhood of
their 'confessions' being suspect is almost certain?

Or will the new circles be laughed off as more pranks?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Rick Pavek
[e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: UFO Seminar
Date: 11 Sep 91 23:19:00 GMT

The following is a report  by Keith Basterfield after attending a recent UFO
seminar in Sydney, New South Wales.

The first Australian International UFO seminar was held on the 7-8
Sept 1991, in Sydney, New South Wales. The meeting was attended by
about 300-350 people. Interestingly it was sponsored by a Japanese
travel company, Imagine-A-Nation. It was an open to the public
seminar.  There were a diverse range of people attending ranging from
the serious to the weird.  It should be noted that it wasn't a UFO
researchers' conference, but a public seminar.

The speakers from overseas were:

1 - Jerry Clark, CUFOS, Chicago.
2 - Jenny Randles U.K.
3 - Brian O'Leary, ex astronaut from the US.

Australian speakers were:-

1 - Bill Chalker.
2 - Keith Basterfield.
3 - Brian Crowley.
4 - Antony Drew.

On Friday Sept 6, a media conference was held and attended by all
speakers. During the subsequent 2 hours of interviewing the media
concentrated on Jerry ideas of cover-up; Jenny's ideas on crop
circles and Keith's x-ray re abductions.  Other attendees received
less attention.  The resultant publicity from the media conference
has been very wide spread.

Topics covered were:

Jenny Randles covered U.K. circles. She illustrated the progression
of the phenomenon from simple to complex.  Circles have been traced
back for some 500 years.  Jenny explored  Meaden's vortices, saying
that the theory didn't cover the entire phenomena, but feels it
covers a percentage of simple circles.  She explored the recent
Japanese recreation of plasma phenomena in a modified microwave oven.

Jenny showed a slide of the English policeman's green alien and
discussed this sighting, saying  that it holds up; they haven't been
able to crack that case as anything other than genuine so far.

Jenny also advised that with UK abduction cases BUFORA has stopped
doing hypnotic regressions and feel that they should only be done by
qualified professionals.

Jerry Clark talked over the two  days on the U.S.A. cover up legend,
from Roswell in 1947 through to the present.  Jerry believes that the
80s legends are disinformation from U.S. Air Force intelligence.  He
discussed the reasons for this- a) the USAF could have the crashed
Roswell UFO, b) they could be just covering up secret aircraft
research beyond stealth.  At the present there are reliable US based
reports of extraordinary aircraft flying in a manner characteristic
of UFOs re speed, and manoeuvrability.  Hudson Bay and Belgium
reports talk of similar craft.  Jerry outlined Bill Cooper's story as
an example of paranoia going through U.S. UFOlogy.  Because of
audience response, it is very obvious that the Bill Cooper legend has
taken off amongst some Australian UFOlogists.

Brian O'Leary gave 2 talks mainly on the new age movement and his
personal conversion through a psychic experience.  On Sunday he
demonstrated  spoon bending.  Basically explained his own experience
from being an astronaut, through being a physicist, through now to
tour guide operator to new age sites. A personal story of conversion.

Brian Crowley was examining evidence for ET life in our solar system.
He talked about the face on Mars and moon mysteries, illustrated with
slides, some of which were blurred.  There was almost no new
information in the talk, all at least 5 years old.

Antony Drew gave an illustrated talk covering Bruce Cathy style grid
systems over Australia.  Again, no new information in talk.

Bill Chalker gave an illustrated talk covering the physical trace
experience within Australia and overseas.  Bill said these cases are
amenable to scientific examination.  He covered the Rosedale and
early physical trace cases like Tully, slime mould on lawns, giving a
broad cross section of illustrations.  He stated that science has not
taken a serious look at the phenomena across the board so far.

Keith Basterfield reviewed the last 30 years of good UFO cases in
Australia e.g. Rev Browning, Tasmania, 1960; Valentich; Rosedale; and
Mundrabilla.  Keith explored the Australian abduction experience and
illustrated this with two South Australian cases, one of which
involves possible evidence of an alien implant.  See Keith's recent
IUR article on this case.

The weekend was an excellent opportunity for the exchange of ideas
between serious Australian researchers and Jerry and Jenny and
cemented relationship between UFORA and the two of them.

UFORA was promoted by literature about the organisation and its
publications. Steven Thorne, the publishers representative for
UFORA's digitized book UFO RESEARCH IN AUSTRALIA AND N.Z. was present
throughout the weekend.  Steven told Keith that the book on disc
attracted a large amount of attention.  The publishers are
considering making the book on disc available in a MacIntosh format.

--
Vladimir Godic - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
Date: 11 Sep 91 15:05:00 GMT

This is starting to get really crazy. I have been ready for someone to own
up to the hoax for quite some time - I still feel it is one. However, these
two gents are NOT who I had in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of
some neo-pagan cult. A hoax of this magnitude requires a great many more
than two people to pull off. Delgado MUST know that...so why is he all of a
sudden buying these two guys?

Crazy....just crazy...

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Greys and Glossaries
Date: 12 Sep 91 04:45:00 GMT

Hi James,

Thanks for the interesting post on elves and greys.  Makes ya wonder,
doesn't it?

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: BeckleyCon
Date: 12 Sep 91 05:26:00 GMT

Hi Jim,

I'll fill you and others in on the portion of the BeckleyCon that I
attended on Sunday.

The session I choose to attend featured 2 older gentlemen from The
House of Dawn here in Phoenix.  One of them channeled Nicola Tesla
himself, no less, in a Hungarian accent, no less.  Couldn't help but
wish I spoke Hungarian so I could communicate with Tesla in his native
tongue.

The next speaker was a foxy-looking guy named Jerry Willis (also of
Phoenix) who claims to have been one of the aliens who crashed at
Roswell.  (You should see me shaking with laughter right now!)  He said
he then spent 5 years floating around as a spirit once he died there on
the Roswell desert, and then - poof! - he became a human.  When I asked
him what solar system he, as the alien, came from, he answered, "From
the Tau Ceti-Zeti Reticulum system."  <sigh>  Well, I try to do my
homework, Jim, on these matters; I knew already that Tau Ceti is about
11.8 light years from Earth.  Now, checking a bit further, it appears
that Zeti Reticuli is 37 light years from Earth.  Looking at a star
chart here, it appears that T.C. and Z.R. are about 30 light years from
--each other--.  So how  did.....?  Never mind.  He was a very good
speaker, drew a big crowd, was NICE to look at, and totally bananas.

Next was Jim Moseley.  A lot of people left, I'm sorry to report.  But
I thought he was funny, and I have so far received two copies of
"Saucer Smear" (his publication which you recommended to me) and they
are very funny, IMHO.

Next, and last, was a very nice lady therapist from San Diego named
Sally Mattoon speaking on "Dealing with the trauma of UFO Abductions."
Unfortunately, I missed some of her talk due to a call of Nature, but
she was not a woo-woo.  I have her business card which reads that she
deals with all issues of abuse, addictions, traumas, anxieties, etc.
She was very sincere and intelligent.  She invitied us all to attend
her Monday wworkshop, but I had to be at work "to cast pearls of
wisdom."

The craziest session was a $40 workshop to hear Dr. Harley Byrd (NO
RELATION) speak on his famous uncle's trip to the Hollow Earth.
Fortunately, I received a guest pass, or I woulda raised a ruckus about
getting my money back!

His ditsey wife passed out copies of a hymn and insisted we all sing
along with some old 90-year old Soprano.  Then Harley got up and ran
back and forth in front of us for a few minutes, as if to gather his
wits and get organized.  He gave us some personal background.  Then he
drew a picture of the Hollow Earth and explained it in faltering words
When asked "Where does the magma come from?"  -  Harley stammered and
hemmed and finally said, "From your Mind!!"  (I am NOT kidding!)  Then
to shut up all the questions, he insisted on showing this AWFUL video
he made himself called "Dreamtime in Dreamland."  It was very unpro-
fessional, with weird music, hand-held photos of the solar system held
in from of a cam corder, etc.  He borrowed everything from everybody he
could on "Area 51-Dulce" (as he called it) to make this video.  I
recognized pictures from MUFON Proceedings, UFO Magazine, etc.  It was
appalling!  Harley narrated this, and was stumbling over words such as
'technological'--he pronounced it a couple of times until he was
satisfied that he got it right.

People started to grumble: "What's this got to do with the Hollow
Earth?"  He told us, "You'll see!"  Then people started to leave, and I
finally did, too.  It was a big joke.  Obviously he didn't really have
anything left to add to his uncle's material.
Jim, you didn't miss anything here.            Bye,  Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************
                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 475

                          Monday, September 16th 1991

Today's Topics:

                     Re: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
                          Re: UFO Conference in Orlando
                            Re: UFO Conference in Orl
                       September 18th 'Unsolved Mysteries'
                                Hudson Valley UFO
                                  circles again
                               meteors and auroras
                          Re : How old are the 'greys'?
                             Re: HUDSON VALLEY TAPE
                                  PRESS RELEASE
                              Paranet Headquarters?
                             Re: Hudson Valley Tape
                                 Re: Mutilations
                                  Circles Again
                       Re: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
                                  HVUFO Round 3
                               HVUFO Round 3 [1/3]
                               HVUFO Round 3 [2/3]
                               HVUFO Round 3 [3/3]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
Date: 12 Sep 91 05:37:00 GMT

Hi Jim,

You asked "what other bothersome individual, loosely connected with the
UFO phenomenon does this remind you of?"

Ed Walters?

Whatcha say?

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: UFO Conference in Orlando
Date: 12 Sep 91 05:38:00 GMT

Hi John,

See what I added to Jim Speiser's remarks about the "BeckleyCon."

<:-)

Linda


--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: UFO Conference in Orl
Date: 12 Sep 91 05:41:00 GMT

Hi Tyson,

See my response to Jim Speiser about Sunday's "BeckleyCon" that I went
to.  Thanks!

<:-)

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: September 18th 'Unsolved Mysteries'
Date: 12 Sep 91 13:32:05 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

The season premier of NBC's 'Unsolved Mysteries' is next Wednesday,
September 18th, and there will be a segment on the Bentwaters/Rendlesham
case.

--
  *  From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Dreamline')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: Hudson Valley UFO
Date: 12 Sep 91 13:32:19 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

To: John Hicks

+  Interesting. You do know that Phil I. tracked some ultralights to a small
+airstrip, right? I have a file from him here somewhere, if you want it. It's
+about a year or so old, but might have a bearing.

You mean the same file I have, where he tracked them to some sort of
military base with a secret area that he couldn't determine the function
of?  Not to mention the cattle the FDA kept there?

--
  *  From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Dreamline')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: circles again
Date: 12 Sep 91 13:32:32 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

There was an AP article today about a man in North Carolina who says that
while he believes the British circles with all the fancy designs are a
hoax, he has some plain circles that he thinks were really caused by wind
or something.  A terribly boring and obvious article, except for a couple
of odd paragraphs at the end:

    In North Dakota, Sharon Wagner says a series of mysterious circles
    that showed up in a hay field on her family's farm north of Bismarck
    three years ago are still plainly visible.

    'We don't have any real explanation for it one way or another,'
    she said.

(Quoted without permission for research purposes only.)

--
  *  From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Dreamline')






--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: meteors and auroras
Date: 12 Sep 91 13:32:46 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

+From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>
+
+For a long time people have claimed they could 'hear' meteors streaking
+across the sky, describing the sound as a hissing or crackling 'like bacon
+frying'.  Such claims were dismissed by orthodox science as obviously
+absurd, since the objects in question were much too far away (typically
+tens of miles or more).  Turns out that, in fact, what people were hearing
+was not the actual sound of meteors screaming through the air but rather
+the electromagnetic disturbance they create, which was operating directly
+on the observers' nervous system.  (I believe this was discussed several
+months ago in Science News, but I don't have the reference anymore.)

I remember seeing this discussed somewhere also.  I heard a meteor about
ten years ago, but I don't remember what I thought about it then.

There was an article about auroras in The Old Farmer's Almanac a few years
ago.  It said that some people who live in the far north claim that auroras
make noise.  I figure it's probably a similar mechanism to that of the
meteors.  What really caught my eye about the article was not that, but an
Eskimo legend that the aurora would sometimes descend to earth and carry
someone away, never to be seen again!

--
  *  From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Dreamline')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: cwns2.INS.CWRU.Edu!al463
Subject: Re : How old are the 'greys'?
Date: 13 Sep 91 03:35:20 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Christopher A. Joseph)


Linda Bird,

In a message to me, you write:
+Subject: Re: How old are the 'greys'?
+Date: 2 Sep 91 22:52:00 GMT
+
+Hi Chris,
+
+Would you please send me a copy of one-two pages of that comic book you
+have showing the 'gray alien?'  I'll be happy to send $ome ca$h to
+defray the postage and copy cost.  Can you give me an address, or do
+you want mine first?
+
+Thanks, and best regards,
+
+Linda

Don't worry about the $. I'll do the copying at work and stamps don't
cost that much, anyway. If you want, I could scan a picture of one of
the aliens, save it as a .GIF, compress it, UUENCODE it, and e-mail
it to you (whew :-), as well as mail you the xeroxes. This is the
first time I have posted a message to the newsletter after having
read it for about 4 months. I have always been interested in UFOlogy,
this is my first chance to participate.

Nice to meet you,

Chris Joseph
3213 Clague Rd.
North Olmsted, OH. 44070


(I sent this to your fido/Internet address last week. Apparently it
didn't get there. Sorry.)


Chris

--
Christopher A. Joseph (Chris)|'You can go wrong by being too skeptical
 [e-mail] |as readily as by being too trusting'L.L.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
'!ELUR sebboH dna nivlaC' << Subliminal Message | FNORD!| Praise "Bob"




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: HUDSON VALLEY TAPE
Date: 11 Sep 91 05:25:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <09-05-91 22:39> Pete Porro wrote:
PP>
PP> OK maybe they can tell something in the daylight, I don't
PP> for telling a 182 from a 152 against a similar sky, under
PP> same conditions. I'd like to see them do it. I hope this
PP> challenge flys... (BTW what's a 182?)

A 182 is a "big" 152, i.e.: same style with wings over. It's hefty and often
used in skydiving. Another typical use is as a seaplane. The 182 has been
around a long time.

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: PRESS RELEASE
Date: 12 Sep 91 14:30:00 GMT

The following press release was sent by UFO Magazine to AP, UPI, CNN, and
several more of the large news agencies.

**************************************************************************




PRESS RELEASE


Sept. 11, 1991

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                     Contact: Don Ecker
                                                   [phone]


     Two Britons, Dave Chorley and Doug Bower, just claimed to the
world that they hoaxed the strange phenomenon called "crop
circles," inexplicable and often elaborate shapes laid out with
near-perfect precision in the wheat and rye fields of southern
England.
     ALL circles a hoax? Absolute nonsense, counter the
responsible, serious students of the phenomenon, who have been
quick to point out the fallacies of the two men's claim.
     "It would be impossible for any human to make some of the more
complex circles, which show drastic depressions in the fields
without damaging crop stalks whatsoever," comments Vicki Cooper,
editor and co-publisher of UFO Magazine, a bi-monthly publication
out of California.
     "An excess of 1,000 circles appeared in 1990 alone," Cooper
says. "If you take a 3-month period and divide it by the 1000-plus
circles, that would come out to approximately 12 circles a night--
impossible! Many have appeared in other countries, too. Now that's
quite a trick!" The current issue of UFO is specially themed around
the crop circle enigma.
     Chorley and Bower appeared to have pulled the plug on the
mystery when they "confessed" to having made the circles by pulling
flat planks across the crop fields.
     "If anyone looks closely at the evidence and then pauses to
think for a moment, they'd realize just how ludicrous these claims
are," says Cooper.
     So far the circles continue to defy explanation, say the
experts, though some have pointed to UFOs.
     Why would anyone make such an incredible hoax claim? "It could
be disinformation, it could be a huge joke," Cooper comments. "We
see that sort of thing all the time in the UFO field."

                               -30-


END OF PRESS RELEASE

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Damien Barkan)
Subject: Paranet Headquarters?
Date: 11 Sep 91 03:21:52 GMT

Can someone give the the phone number of the Paranet headquarters node
(Michael Corbin?)? I haven't been able to locate any still-existing
Paranet nodes from the list I obtained from my local node.

Thanks

--
Damien Barkan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 13 Sep 91 16:52:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Delton <09-08-91 13:57> John Hicks wrote:
JH> right mind would
JH>  > be running at night in formation and turn on WHITE
JH> BRIGHT cockpit
JH>  > lights????
JH>
JH>   Now that you mention it, I've never seen an illuminated
JH> airplane cockpit, and I live right under approaches for two
JH> airports.

That would be a really stupid thing to do unless you were rated for IFR. If
you turn on the lights inside the cockpit, you can't see outside.

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Mutilations
Date: 7 Sep 91 14:17:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
 * Originally from Jeff Later
 * Originally dated 09-06-91 17:58

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Later)
Date: 6 Sep 91 16:05:54 GMT
Organization: WINCO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:

>I recently spent some time with Linda Moutlen-Howe, who is the
>public world's leading authority on cattle mutilations.

>While I spoke with Linda, a FedEx pouch came in with close-up
>photographs of the latest mutilations in Virginia, which had
>happened 10 days before.   It is continuing  ....


Here's another "Fedex pouch" for you:  This was in last night's,(9/5/91),
Idaho Falls, Idaho newspaper:

"Donnelly Valley County authorities are puzzled by the bizarre death of a horse
found mutilated in a pasture near Donnelly.  The 14- year old mare was found
last Friday lying on its side.  All of its blood had been drained.  The
animal's
neck and lips had been cut cleanly.  No drops of blood or tracks were found
around the carcass and there were no signs of gunshot wounds......."

"The incident is the latest in a series of animal mutilations in Idaho, across
the country and in other parts of the world, said Linda Moulton Howe, a former
Boise resident, who has investigated the subject for 11 years......."


 _____________________________________________________________________________
||++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|++++++++++++++++++++++++++||
||Jeff B. Later WB7TZA   ([e-mail]) |    "I have become        ||
||**"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, where's my lawyer!** |   comfortably numb"      ||

||                                                |      Pink Floyd          ||
 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Circles Again
Date: 14 Sep 91 14:48:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
 * Originally from Jim Shaffer
 * Originally dated 09-12-91 12:06

From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Date: 12 Sep 91 03:36:20 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

There was an AP article today about a man in North Carolina who says that
while he believes the British circles with all the fancy designs are a
hoax, he has some plain circles that he thinks were really caused by wind
or something.  A terribly boring and obvious article, except for a couple
of odd paragraphs at the end:

    In North Dakota, Sharon Wagner says a series of mysterious circles
    that showed up in a hay field on her family's farm north of Bismarck
    three years ago are still plainly visible.

    "We don't have any real explanation for it one way or another,"
    she said.

(Quoted without permission for research purposes only.)

--
  *  From the disk of:  |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.      |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms   | for a limited time.
  37 Brook Street       |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752  |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Dreamline")

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Re: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
Date: 14 Sep 91 16:55:00 GMT

Hi Jim,
        Did you ever get the reply I posted to your message to me
about the file you had on Alternative III?  I phoned your BBS # and
got no answer several times, and once a voice reply (I had already
hit the hangup button before I realized I could've spoken to the
girl, sorry!)
        I also was VERY interested in what you were going to say
about the Ogden objects and have been hoping to hear from you on
that.  If you didn't get my messages, maybe I should try another
way...
                                        Peggy
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 3
Date: 14 Sep 91 21:00:00 GMT



Re: Following messages

Methinks I've got this Maury guy on the ropes. Any comments before I finish
him off?

I haven't had this much fun since I threw Cooper off of ....<ahem>....

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 3 [1/3]
Date: 14 Sep 91 21:30:00 GMT


Round 3 part 1
Cross-posted from SCIENCE


(19763)   Thu 12 Sep 91 10:42a
By: Maury Markowitz
To: Jim Speiser
Re: Re: UFO Tape
St: Rcvd
----------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:43e5 172c5551
@MSGID: 1:250/712 28cf8aea
 JS> I still like you, Maury, and I'm very glad you made it public. You'll
 JS> see why in a moment.

  Good to hear.

 JS> All of which says that some pilots were very interested in the UFOs.
 JS> Maury, ALL the pilot activity you mention above took place AFTER the
 JS> initial spate of object sightings, at least as far as we know.

  From what I understand, the sighting of the object that the
police officer chased (that turned out to be planes) happened near
the very beginning of the events.

 JS> This is absolute nonsense. I am assured by several people that there
 JS> is
 JS> no way to make a positive identification of an airplane type based on
 JS> a
 JS> formation of singular white lights on a black background.


  Perhaps I mistated the case.  When all of this started, all you
did was ask me to take the tape to professional pilots and see if
they thought that the object could be planes...  this I did and
they agreed.  Somewhere in the conversation, I pointed to the
lights and said something to the effect,

"See the lights like that, it looks like NBW!" [a 182 that I jump
from]
and one of the guys...
"No, it looks more like a 152, because they have the small windows
behind the cockpit that would cause the second light"

  So, this is not by any means a "positive identification"{, and at
no point did I EVER state that it was.  You asked me to take it to
pilots (all the pilots at the club are Commertial Pilots, with full
ratings, multi-engine, IFR etc, one is an air-ambulance pilot)
which I did, they said that it could be planes.  PERIOD.

 JS> challenge you to prove your claim. A simple scientific test of your
 JS> powers of aircraft identification is, at this moment, being devised by
 JS> some of my comrades on ParaNet. We're itching to administer it to you.
 JS> Are you game?

  Perhaps you cannot read.  I stated "probibly" etc in the letter
to you.  I have no such claims to aircraft identification, and do
not feel that I could pass your test at all.  I said "hmmm, they
look like 182
's to me", they said "nope, looks more like 152's".  If anything, I
have said nothing except that my powere of nightime aircraft
identification are NOT very good!

  I KNEW I was getting myself in over my head when you first wrote
to me, I even said that on the net several time.  Jim, I have
little or no interest in this subject.  My personaly feelings
asside, I'd rather not be deluged by materials from ParaNet, and
don't want to put in more than the couple of hours I've spent so
far on it.
  This whole thing started when I stated that I had read the
Discover article that seemed to make it look silly to the extreme.
Your response was the challenge.  Now you want another challenge?
When will it end?

cont...

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 3 [2/3]
Date: 14 Sep 91 21:32:00 GMT

Round 3 Part 2
Cross posted from SCIENCE


----------------------------------------------------------------------
(19764)   Thu 12 Sep 91 10:54a
By: Maury Markowitz
To: Jim Speiser
Re: Re: UFO Tape
St: Rcvd
----------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:43e5 172c56d0
@MSGID: 1:250/712 28cf8db8
 JS> Excuse me, but how do YOU interpret Prof. Hibbs' admittedly
 JS> obfuscatory
 JS> statement? If he DID have a reason to give an explanation, don't you
 JS> think he would have given one? He is a member of CSICOP, after all,

  Admittedly obfuscatory statement?  Where in the statement did he
admit to being obfuscatory?  I didn't see anything like that.  All
I have is what you sent me Jim, if you're going to pull other
statements out of the air, you'll have to at least tell me where
they are coming from.  The person on the tape specifically stated
that he had no proof one way or the other.
  Let me ask YOU this, have you talked to this person?  Have you
asked him his OPINION?  His opinion is probibly MUCH different than
what he stated, one way OR the other, I'll not say which.  What I
saw on the tape was a very well edited conversation, that made it
sound like he had no idea, which he probibly doesn't.  However, he
also stated that he was NOT going to say that these were alien
craft!  Would you like me to call him or write to him?

 JS> think he would have given one? He is a member of CSICOP, after all,
 JS> and
 JS> CSICOP's primary mission is to try to explain paranormal claims in
 JS> fundamentally normal terms. Is it not therefore safe to assume that,

  I like them already.  This is every scientist's aim in life, to
explain the unexplainable.  Who are these people, and what do they
do?  Is this the "oranization" that Randy has something to do with?
 Sorry, I'm not up on this group.

 JS> fundamentally normal terms. Is it not therefore safe to assume that,
 JS> since he had no reason to give one, he did not have one to give? And
 JS> if
 JS> a JPL scientist lacks an explanation for an anomaly, and no one else
 JS> of
 JS> comparable stature has one, DOES IT NOT THEREFORE REMAIN UNEXPLAINED?

  Did you ever see me state otherwise? The guy states that he
cannot prove anything one way or the other, but that he's not going
to say these are alien craft.  That's all I'm going on Jim, I'm not
going to bother reading anything more into it at all.  Think what
you wish of the statement, but until one of use actually goes out
and asks him, it's all just speculation.

 JS> Another typical tactic of the debunker: the claimants are to blame for
 JS> the production values of any TV show that showcases their claim. This
 JS> one happened to be quite an excellent program, even by skeptics'

  And apparently of the "believer".  This is exactly what you were
trying to do to the JPL person in the last statement... "well, he's
a CSICOP member, so OF COURSE...".  Practice what you preach Jim.
  I didn't think it was an excellent program at all.  In fact, I
thought it was laughable.  I'll bet that Arnold, Les and Dave would
too.

cont...

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 3 [3/3]
Date: 14 Sep 91 21:33:00 GMT

Round 3 Part 3
Cross Posted from SCIENCE


----------------------------------------------------------------------
(19765)   Thu 12 Sep 91 11:11a
By: Maury Markowitz
To: Jim Speiser
Re: Re: UFO Tape
St: Rcvd
----------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:43e5 172c5978
@MSGID: 1:250/712 28cf91c4
 JS> As for him being "sure these are NOT spacecraft," I envy him his
 JS> certitude.

  That's good.  He's a professional, and you're not.  I too admire
him for being able to do this, he's lucky that he has the knowledge
and tools required to make this kind of analysis, which WE DO NOT.

 JS> And now we come to the part where you might not like ME too much,
 JS> Maury.
 JS> Your unquestioning citation of Philip Klass' statements points up one
 JS> of
 JS> the basic problems with skepticism as it is practiced in some
 JS> quarters:

  As I have stated repeatedly throughout this thread, ALL I have on
this subject is what YOU provided.  If you wanted me to know
something about this staement, you only have YOURSELF to blame for
not providing it!

 JS> You see, Mr. Klass' statement was not just false, it was demonstrably,
 JS> palpably, undeniably false. It is so false as to hold no resemblance
 JS> for
 JS> the truth whatsoever. Not only did the sightings NOT stop, they did
 JS> not
 JS> even subside appreciably. (I say this with no small amount of
 JS> surprise:

  And had you provided me with this information, I would not be
inclined to use it.  However, ALL you provided was Klass's
statement, and that's it.  And here you are calling me out on the
carpet for using information that you provide?

 JS> Let the record show that Maury Markowitz, and not Jim Speiser, said
 JS> the
 JS> "A" word first. 15 yards, Ridicule of a Straw Man Argument, First Down
 JS> Speiser.

  Oh, I'm sorry Jim.  I guess it's not alright to make a joke about
things and mention the "a" work.
  Well, do me a favour, enlighten and ignorant rube like me... what
do YOU think these things are?  Don't you DARE enev THINK about
copping out on me Jim, I don't want to hear "unexplained" from you.
  My position has been all along that planes provided an
explaination for the sightings, and I didn't think anything else I
had seen required a different explaination.  The tapes you provided
only strengthed my OPINION, and nothing else.  I have little
interest in the subject, and my cursory examination of the
materials YOU provided have given me nothing to make me change my
mind.  I FEEL that planes provide enough of an explaination that
the remaining people who refuse to believe it do not represent a
significant enough number.  I got bizzare results all the time in
my labs, they didn't mean anything either.
  So, I turn the tables on you Jim.  If these are not planes, what
are they?  You have provied no evidence that they are anything else
at all!  NONE! NADA! ZIP!

Maury

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************
                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 476

                          Monday, September 16th 1991

Today's Topics:

                         Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
                             Re: HVUFO Round 3 [3/3]
                                    Implants
                                 Re: BeckleyCon
                         Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
                                  Questions...
                         Sheldon's Ufo Conspiracy Novel
                                    UFO Show
                                 Re: Beckleycon
                                  Project VISIT
                       crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
                               Re: CROP CIRCLE HO
                               HVUFO Round 3 [3/3]
                               HVUFO Round 4 [1/6]
                               HVUFO Round 4 [2/6]
                               HVUFO Round 4 [3/6]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
Date: 15 Sep 91 01:41:00 GMT


 > Hi Jim,
 >         Did you ever get the reply I posted to your message to me about
 > the file you had on Alternative III?  I phoned your BBS # and got no
 > answer several times, and once a voice reply (I had already hit the
 > hangup button before I realized I could've spoken to the girl, sorry!)
 >         I also was VERY interested in what you were going to say about
 > the Ogden objects and have been hoping to hear from you on that.  If you
 > didn't get my messages, maybe I should try another way...
 >                                         Peggy
 > ---

Hi Peggy...

Glad we spoke today, but I wish Alternative III had come in the conversation.
No, never received your messages...could you repeat the gist of what you said
about AltIII?

I see where Idaho Falls is AGAIN in the news, this time with the cattle mute
story (a couple of messages back). Hmmmmmmmmm..........


Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: HVUFO Round 3 [3/3]
Date: 15 Sep 91 08:52:00 GMT

Maury is back to the "If you can't prove my claim false then I
automatically win."  I think you are wasting your time on him, he has
done nothing but backtrack.  Previous flat statments presented as fact
are now simply opinions - it's an all too common way of people weasling
out of their previous positions.

--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Implants
Date: 15 Sep 91 23:22:00 GMT

Some time ago I reported on Paranet concerning a local abduction case where the
woman involved believed she had an implant in her upper mouth. I reported that
a dental x-ray had indeed shown two unusual items in her upper mouth in the
area she had indicated. I mentioned that the dentist involved had confirmed to
me that he could not explain the x-ray in conventional terms. I later reported
that a full mouth x-ray had failed to detect any such "implant".

I am in the process of completing an article for the IUR on this piece of
evidence, plus intend covering the subject of implants in general. Thank you to
all those on Paranet who have already forwarded me items of interest to use in
my article.

If anyone else has come across definitive examples of implants, I would be
grateful to hear of them-you will, of course, be referenced as the source in my
article. My postal address is UFORA Research Division, PO Box 302, Modbury
North, South Australia 5092, Australia, or simply chat here.


(9:1040/12)


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Re: BeckleyCon
Date: 16 Sep 91 03:19:00 GMT


 >
 > The session I choose to attend featured 2 older gentlemen from
 > The House of Dawn here in Phoenix.  One of them channeled Nicola
 > Tesla himself, no less, in a Hungarian accent, no less.
 > Couldn't help but wish I spoke Hungarian so I could communicate
 > with Tesla in his native tongue.

Hi Linda,

I always thought I have seen everything - but this is too much.
I couldn't put up with this sort of thing for more than 10 minutes.
You are a very brave lady.

One small correction, if I may. Nikola Tesla was born in Yugoslavia so
I don't know where the Hungarian accent comes into it. I am curious
how did you find out that this WAS Hungarian accent.  As a matter of
fact he was born in that part of the country which is far away from
Hungary. Quite a number of people in Yugoslavia speak both languages if
they live near the border, e.g. Yugoslavs near Hungarian border speak
Hungarian and Hungarians near the border speak Yugoslav.

 > he then spent 5 years floating around as a spirit once he died

I think he had too much "spirit". Perhaps Johnny Walker Black Label.

Regards,
Vlad

--
Vladimir Godic - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
Date: 15 Sep 91 18:24:00 GMT

Hi Jim,
        Sorry I didn't mention the Alternative III in our talk
yesterday -- was focused on the Ogden thing.  Some weeks back I'd
been asking here about Alternative III and several people responded
with info about Leslie Watkins and his Alt III and you were among
them...you'd mentioned that you had a file on your BBS on this topic
and you asked how you should transport it to me.  I replied by
sending my phone and CIS # (71760,1140) and said I'd call your BBS #
to get the file, but the number on your origin line and on ParaNet's
list was not current, so a lot of time evaporated between then and
now.
        Come to think of it, after those initial replies, which I
answered, no one has posted an answering message to my answers
either so maybe something happened that day and all my replies were
lost....Worth checking on, I think.  Fortunately I captured the
original replies so I can go back and check on who said what.
        So, on AltIII, do you indeed have a file on that Leslie
Watkins story or did I misunderstand?  And if so, probably the best
thing would be for me to call your BBS to collect it, unless there's
a different method you would prefer.  Mail?  Other means?  Whatever
works best for you.
        On the Ogden thing, Linda mentioned that Guy Kirkwood was in
La Jolla, CA, so I just called info and got his number there and
spoke to him yesterday afternoon.  He didn't have a lot of new info
to add but was a good thinker -- clear and logical and no conclusion
jumping.  He does have two of the photos (color) and is sending me
photocopies of them.  I will relay those to Pam at Omni and see if
she wants to pay for having duplicate photos copied from his as he
doesn't have the negatives.
        We talked about the inscriptions -- still described as
Arabic looking -- and he said no one had yet identified the language
so I suggested he try the Epigraphic Society in San Diego.  Barry
Fell has a large group of experts there who are familiar with
ancient languages and they should at least be able to identify the
writing, if not translate it.
        On the location, he said he was told it was definitely in
northern Utah but said that Ammon (sp?) could be a possibility,
given that people do make mistakes about things like that.  It's
certainly worth checking out, especially since one photo shows some
kind of power plant in the background behind one of the objects.
        Also, he said it could not be "approximately sixty miles
north of Ogden" as I was told by several people because, he said,
"there aren't sixty miles of Utah above Ogden".  I had neglected to
check my map and didn't spot this obvious glitch.  So that, too,
points to the Idaho site you were onto.
        He did mention that "they" had tried to cut the thing with
torches and couldn't and said the things looked like two horseshoe
magnets, one in a U and the other a a 90-degree angle to that in a
sort of "plus sign" (hard for me to visualize) and they were almost
covered by these inscriptions.
        One person who saw the pix said that they looked just like
the same things that were found in Peru, but Guy Kirkwood didn't
know about the Peruvian things, so couldn't comment on that any
further.  If there were similar or same objects found there, that
would REALLY add to the puzzle.
        If your leads pan out, please do let me know.  Feel free to
call anytime -- if I'm not here, the machine is.  Thanks, again, for
your help!  (BTW, Cheyenne called last night -- Thanks!)  ==Peggy==

--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Questions...
Date: 15 Sep 91 09:16:00 GMT


 > Awhile back, someone mentioned an incident about a NASA control-room
 > man that had made a statement something to the effect of "...we now
 > have the UFO on our screens..." or something like that.  I have been
 > searching high and low to find some actual documentation on this, but
 > to no avail.  Can anyone help me out?

This may have been the big thing with Bob Oeschler a while back with the
Discovery space shuttle where Blaha said, "Houston, we have the alien
spacecraft under observance."  Although it sounded very good, no one could
confirm nor deny that it was Blaha's voice on that tape.  That has never
really gone any further.  NASA denied the whole thing.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Sheldon's Ufo Conspiracy Novel
Date: 15 Sep 91 09:39:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Sci.Skeptic"
 * Originally from Donald D Rice
 * Originally dated 09-04-91 12:03

From: [e-mail] (Donald D Rice)
Date: 3 Sep 91 14:16:00 GMT
Organization: Geophysical Institute, Fairbanks, AK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic


On "Good Morning America" this morning they had a book plug/interview
with Sidney Sheldon.  One of the teasers said that his latest novel involves
a UFO crash coverup, though that didn't come out in the interview.
The book, "The Doomsday Conspiracy," is about a spy who is tired of the
game and discovers he is about to be terminated.  Somehow (he didn't say
how), extraterrestrials get involved who are environmentally correct, wanting
to save the earth (giving new life to the cliche, "little _green_ men").

Sheldon went into the usual business about astronauts being told not to
discuss UFO incidents, but one (Gordon Cooper) coming to him with stories
of UFO sightings and intercept attempts by the Air Force.  Then he mentions
the SETI project, and asks why the government is funding such stuff if they
don't believe in UFOs (if he doesn't know, then he obviously hasn't
researched SETI in detail).

Has anybody read the novel?  I haven't noticed it in local bookstores, but
I hadn't been looking, either.  Probably wait until it comes out in paperback.
I'd like to know what angle he actually takes...if it is a credible work of
fiction, or is as silly as it sounded (a spy meeting environmentally-minded
aliens somehow strikes me as tabloid fodder).  But I had the feeling that in
the interview, Sheldon was making a pitch to capture the interest of UFO
buffs and conspiracy theorists rather than providing an accurate plot synopsis.

The reason I'm curious is that, if the book sells well, I would expect to
see another cycle of UFO interest in the media.  If it sells really well, we
might even see another major outbreak of UFO sightings, close encounters,
etc.  So it would be interesting to know what Sheldon's aliens are like so
we can look for similarities in any incidents that the book might induce.

It would also be interesting to know if Sheldon's aliens are believable.  In
most UFO fiction (as opposed to true science fiction), aliens come off as
one-dimensional morons: they crash their saucers at Roswell, allow their
ships to be shot down by old-fashioned (50s and 60s era) fighters, leave
behind assorted garbage at landing sites (not very green of them), erase the
memories of witnesses so sloppily that amateur hypnotists can circumvent
their work, send manned craft to take soil samples that a robot probe could
get much more efficiently, and so on ad nauseum.  Hopefully Sheldon can add
some depth to the alien persona, so the UFO "literature" won't be quite so
boring and predictable.
--
Don Rice                   E-mail: [e-mail]    (Internet)
Geophysical Institute              fnddr@alaska               (BITNET)
University of Alaska               flux::ddr                  (SPAN)
Fairbanks, AK 99775        Phone:  [phone]        Loran: 64.86N 212.16E

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Mike Keithly)
Subject: UFO Show
Date: 16 Sep 91 03:05:00 GMT

I just noticed in the TV guide on the Discovery Channel there is a segment
about UFO sightings on Monday Sept 16 at 10:00pm MST,on Beyond 2000.
So if you have cable watch it, I will try to tape it..
                              Mike Keithly

--
Mike Keithly - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tom Dalton)
Subject: Re: Beckleycon
Date: 16 Sep 91 06:06:00 GMT

* In a message originally to Linda Bird, Vladimir Godic said:
> >
> > The session I choose to attend featured 2 older gentlemen from
> > The House of Dawn here in Phoenix.  One of them channeled Nicola
> > Tesla himself, no less, in a Hungarian accent, no less.
> > Couldn't help but wish I spoke Hungarian so I could communicate
> > with Tesla in his native tongue.
>
>Hi Linda,
>
>I always thought I have seen everything - but this is too much.
>I couldn't put up with this sort of thing for more than 10
>minutes.
>You are a very brave lady.
>
>One small correction, if I may. Nikola Tesla was born in
>Yugoslavia so I don't know where the Hungarian accent comes
>into it. I am curious how did you find out that this WAS
>Hungarian accent.  As a matter of fact he was born in that part
>of the country which is far away from Hungary. Quite a number
>of people in Yugoslavia speak both languages if they live near
>the border, e.g. Yugoslavs near Hungarian border speak
>Hungarian and Hungarians near the border speak Yugoslav.
> > he then spent 5 years floating around as a spirit once he died
>
>I think he had too much "spirit". Perhaps Johnny Walker Black
>Label.
>
>Regards,
>Vlad
>
>--- FD 1.99c
> * Origin: UFO Research Australia, Administrator, Adelaide -
>Aust. (9:1040/7)
>30163/150
Without addressing the issue of Teslas supposed medium, I would point
out that in Europe, borders around many countries (including Hungary)
were somewhat unstable and that it was not uncommon for people in
those
European countries to speak more than one language. For some reason,
Hungarian was a popular second language in those areas.
--
Tom Dalton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kurt Lochner)
Subject: Project VISIT
Date: 11 Sep 91 20:54:02 GMT


 > I've been seeing some speculation here over the last
 > week or so about Project VISIT and the possibility
 > that it may be some sort of secret NASA project to
 > study UFO abductees.
 >
 > This information is not true.
 >
 > Because VISIT is located in the Houston area and was
 > inspired by the NASA project-type approcah, we
 > probably are now hearing rumors to the effect that it
 > is a NASA project.  It is surely not a secret project.
 >
I have something similar to add.  A while back, oh about
a year or so, there was a certain user, T.S. Bennet, that
made claims to a super-secret aircraft with propulsion
derived from UFO technology.  He called it the Aurora
project...

I bring it up only to remove it from conjecture here.  While
digging through some literature on government funding, I
came across a description of the Aurora Project.  It's
strictly a government project, funded for examining the
effects of aerosol dispersion of nuclear waste around a
specific nuclear processing facility called Aurora.

Thanks for laying to rest yet another urban legend.....

--
Kurt Lochner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
Date: 14 Sep 91 05:48:03 GMT


 > didn't believe that the hoax theory was valid.  In fact, they
 > interviewed
 > *Delgado* and he said that he didn't believe it!  What happened?  Damage
 > control, or just a delay in realizing that the hoax claims were
 > unlikely?

  To get a little stranger, an article from the NYT News wire quoted *David*
Delgado, whoever that might be. Could've sworn I saw Pat Delgado on CNN, so I
assume an error in the wire story, but who knows.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: CROP CIRCLE HO
Date: 13 Sep 91 20:36:25 GMT

I agree there need to be more people involved. But if two old gents can pull
off a circle, in rapid style, then there could be numerous others doing the
same. It reminds me of the military answer that they would have needed many
hours and many people to make these circles. I'm still waiting to see if
these old guys can really make a circle in a few hours.
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 3 [3/3]
Date: 15 Sep 91 22:33:00 GMT


 > Maury is back to the "If you can't prove my claim false then I
 > automatically win."  I think you are wasting your time on him, he has
 > done nothing but backtrack.  Previous flat statments presented as fact
 > are now simply opinions - it's an all too common way of people weasling
 > out of their previous positions.


So why do I waste my time with him? Because, James me boy, there are a few
hundred other people looking in, people with scientific credentials who might
be persuaded to join in this greatest of quests, if they see one of their own
take a polemical whuppin' from a nutty flying saucer freak. And you thought I
was just a masochist.... ;->

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 4 [1/6]
Date: 15 Sep 91 22:54:00 GMT

Round 4 Part 1

(2771)  Fri 13 Sep 91 11:33a
By: Maury Markowitz
To: Jim Speiser
Re: UFO Tape
St: Rcvd                                                             2247<>2772
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:43e5 172d5c37
@MSGID: 1:250/712 28d0e86a

  Ok, that's it Jim.  Now you have stepped WELL beyond the dictates of good
taste.  Not only did you ridicule me, but you also had the gall to cross-post
my messages to a net that I have never seen before.  Moreover, I have no way of
defending myself againced the comments presented on this net, and have to rely
solely on your sense of fair play.
  I will state one last time that I NEVER IDENTIFIED THE AIRCRAFT!!  I don't
know what you stated on the other net, or what led you to believe this, but at
now time did I ever state that I had made a positive ID!  I stated that I
THOUGHT they were 182's, and the guys at the club said that they looked more
like 152's, because of the small window that you see behind the wing, which
would result in the two lights closely spaced.  That's all I said.  If anything
(to state it yet again), it shows that I am BAD at IDing the aircraft, because
the commertial pilots at the club said I was wrong.  However, I do stand by the
fact that that light seen flashing on the "lead" object looks REMARKABLY like
the one on our 182 at the club.

  And yet, as if this were not enough, now I find myself being attacked by
people I've never talked to before in my life!  Did I ever staTE THAT I wanted
this abuse?  Sorry, I've got better things to do with my life.
However, I am forced to reply to these letters in order to save face.
Personally, I'd rather cut open my head with a bone saw and feel my brain, but
that would not help in this case.

  Jim, thanks for the tapes.  I know they cost you money, and the shipping too.
 However, as I stated those 2 LONG years ago, I wat right about getting in over
my head.  This thread will now end if all you're going to do is call me stupid.
 I will have to ask you to post the following message to "paranet", and ask you
to provide confirmation that this has been done.  If you do not do this, I will
be forced to ignore all futher messages from you until you do.  Sorry, but
there's no way I'm going to invest more time in something that I had no intrest
in in the first place.

  BTW, the kit experiments are still a failure.  Our experiment with a mylar
covered kite failed when it hit a tree and ripped.

Maury

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 4 [2/6]
Date: 15 Sep 91 22:55:00 GMT

Round 4 Part 2

(2772)  Fri 13 Sep 91 11:43a
By: Maury Markowitz
To: Jim Speiser
Re: UFO Tape
St: Rcvd                                                             2771<>2773
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:43e5 172d5d78
@MSGID: 1:250/712 28d0eac4
  To all those on the "ParaNet" echo system...

  About 2 years ago I first joined the Science echo to talk to other people.  I
have been rather active over the last two years, and remain so.  I like to keep
my hand in, after leaving honours physics 2 May's ago, and it sort of "keeps me
in the loop", so to speak.
  Right at the start, I got into a conversation about the Gulf Stream UFO
stories with another echo member.  I was interested that this story seemed to
be so close to the Hudson Valley UFO stories in some ways.  Soon after, Jim
wrote me stating that although he agreed that the Gulf Stream UFO's were a
hoax, that the Hudson Valley ones were not.
  At that time, I responded by saying that all I knew about it was what I read
in the apparently famous Discover! article about the subject.  I felt that the
evidence provided in this article was fairly conclusive.  I also stated that I
found it strange that the frontespiece from the article was from the videotape
shown on "UFO Coverup Live" a few years later.
  Jim replied that I did not have the correct information, and offered to send
me a tape.  I really could care less, but I figured it would be OK.  I actually
asked for still frames, as I wanted to give the new MicroTec 300GZ 24-bit
colour laser scanner a try, and this would be a great thing to play with it on
(no, I had not hopes of showing it to be a fake, but a full colour
StartupScreen of the UFO would be great for my Mac).  Jim said that he didn't
have still, and only the tape, so I said that that would be OK if he wanted to
send it to me.  He also challenged me to show the tape to a pilot  and see if
he could state that it was airplanes (actually, I think the challenge was to
find ONE pilot that said...).  Anyway, I was (and still am) a skydiver, so I
offered to show it to the pilots at the club, they are all Commertial Pilots
with full ratings.
  Well, it took a while, but I finally got the tape about a month ago (or
perhaps longer, I don't remeber).  I watched it, and I saw what looked to me to
be a 182 leading some others.  I based this quick look on nothing more than a
cursory examination of the tape, and I noticed that all the lights seemed to
have a dim light right behind it.
  So I took the tape to the club, and the pilots said that the 182 didn't have
a window in the right place, but a 152 did.  I then reported to Jim that I had
risen to his challenge, and found (several) pilots that said the object could
be aircraft.
  At no time did I or anyone else offer a "positive" ID, and yet here I am
being attacked for doing so.  I don't know what it is that I said that made
this the case, but I find it rather angering.
  Back to the story... Jim then sent me a second tape.  This one had two 1/2
hour shows on it about the UFOs.  Again, I gave them a quick watch.  I found
the second show to be a joke, poor production, poor sound and pretty lousy
editorial.  However, these tapes simply confirmed my belief that the objects
seen were airplanes.
  No I don't have proof, I've never left my living room!  I could care less
what the story is!  I took the tape to the pilots, they said it could be
planes.  That's the end of the road people, I've done my bit.  Complain if you
wish, call me a fool if it makes you feel better, but I NEVER had an intrest in
this to start with, and I DON'T NOW!!!  Sorry, I've got better things to waste
my time on (like jumping out of the 182), and have other hobbies that I
actually enjoy.  Watching tapes and argueing with people is not one of them.  I
have never been a UFO debunker, I have never met one, and I have read very
little on the topic on either side.  Basically, it just doesn't intrest me,
sorry.

cont...


--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 4 [3/6]
Date: 15 Sep 91 22:56:00 GMT

Round 4 Part 3

(2773)  Fri 13 Sep 91 11:59a
By: Maury Markowitz
To: Jim Speiser
Re: UFO Tape
St: Rcvd                                                             2772<>2774
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:43e5 172d5f6c
@MSGID: 1:250/712 28d0ee6c
  Then, to continue my frustration, Jim barrages me with a series of apparently
angry letters.  The silly thing is that after I said I was done with the
subject, I made a JOKE about it, which he attacked!  Now, I suddently see that
my messages have been cross-posted to ParaNet, apparently so that you too can
ridicule me.
  Get this through your heads NOW, I DON'T GIVE A DAMB ABOUT THIS SUBJECT!

 JS> By: Doug Rogers
 JS> To: Jim Speiser
 JS> Re: Hudson Valley Tape
 JS> St: Rcvd
 JS> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 JS> @EID:f70c 28c28d1d
 JS> Jim...
 JS>
 JS> I'd appreciate your cross posting this reply to our associate Maury
 JS> in the "Science" echo, as I don't read that one...
 JS>
 JS> Maury,
 JS>
 JS> I'd like to thank you for the best humor I've read in years.

  Thank's, you're welcome.  At least someone got some enjoyment out of this
fiasco.

 JS> I find it fascinating that you are well enough versed in aircraft
 JS> identification to identify the proported aircraft in the "genuine"
 JS> tape as 152's and a 182.  Especially in the face of the inability

  I never said that, I said they LOOKED to ME like 182, and they looked to the
pilots at the club like 152's.  Period.

 JS> tape as 152's and a 182.  Especially in the face of the inability
 JS> of the analysts at JPL (who are SUPPOSED to know what they are

  I know nothing of this except for a heavily edited interview on one of Jim's
tapes.  I have now idea what JPL thinks, and could care less really.  I would
like to work there though, they do some great magic.

 JS> doing) to do the same.  I am supposing that you have some
 JS> evaluative criteria that the other "experts" have over-looked, and
 JS> can therefore share with us your reasoning so we may all check our

  None whatsoever.  I have no intrest in this, and never thought that I would
be attacked in this manner.  I will now publicly appologize for having an
opinion, to you and all the others that seem to think this is a crime.
  I never pretended to be an expert, and don't even know how they go about
doing their work.  So, perhaps I am DEAD wrong, but until I see otherwise
(don't bother trying to show me, I could care less), I srand behind my
statement:  I have no trouble believing that the object I see on the tape are
aircraft of some sort, I thought they looked like 182's the others thought that
152's were more close to the mark.

cont...

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************
                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 477

                          Tuesday, September 17th 1991

Today's Topics:

                               HVUFO Round 4 [4/6]
                               HVUFO Round 4 [5/6]
                               HVUFO Round 4 [6/6]
                                  Confirmation
                             Dave and Doug on Hoaxes
                                  The Continuum
                                  Re: Implants
                       Re: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
                             for Paranet newsletter
                       Re: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
                            Crop Circles=RMN story#1
                             Crop Circle-RMN arte#2
                              2ntry:Crop Circle #1
                                op circle RMN #3
                                      iv!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 4 [4/6]
Date: 15 Sep 91 22:56:00 GMT

Round 4 Part 4

(2774)  Fri 13 Sep 91 12:08p
By: Maury Markowitz
To: Jim Speiser
Re: UFO Tape
St: Rcvd                                                             2773<>2775
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:43e5 172d610d
@MSGID: 1:250/712 28d0f08a
 JS> [Lights attached to a blimp?  That certainly seems to be an
 JS> Please explain the support for your theory.]

  Jim sent me a letter from Lew Allen about the tape.  He told me that JPL had
looked at the tape and concluded that they could not be planes and were
attached to a blimp.  I replied that I bet that they had not had a chance to
view the tape in depth, and that it was probibly an off-the -cuff remark...
here are some samples, judge for yourself...

"The examination has been only visual - I don't think we can apply the effort
needed for a really quantitative analysis."

  Boy, sounds like what I predicted pretty closely.

"We would guess that the lights are
attached to one rigid object - a guess might be an airship (blimp) of some
sort.
"

  "A guess might be..."  Need I say more?

 JS> knowlege of the field. You will be nothing short of fascinated to
 JS> find that sound propagation depends on a NUMBER of factors, and
 JS> distance is not the most important of them.  Wind direction, for
 JS> instance, has FAR more influence on the distribution of sound than
 JS> does pure distance.

  I finf this no supprise at all, conidering I did most of my 3rd year physics
labs in a RF/soundproof room.  My statement to Jim was that it was quite
obvious that the object in question was MUCH futher away (as seen by two
factors, the lights are MUCH brighter on the second tape, and the seperation
between them is more obvious).  I have no information on the wind direction,
but Jim did mention that the tape was taken on a windy day.  Perhaps you would
agree that the sound of the wind, combined with the effects of wind on sound
"movement" could perhaps explain the masking of the sound of aircraft engines?
Considering that the tape implied that this was the only difference the people
noticed (at least, they said that they could hear the engines on the tape) was
the sound, and I have no other information, I did not find it supprising at all
that this was the case. I also gave the example of the club's 182 taking off,
which was SILENT, even at full power and pitch, on a windless day (that's why I
was on the ground, I hate jumping when there's no wind) at less than a mile.
No, I was not at all suprised to find that they did not hear the engines.  Are
you?

 JS> I could go on, but I believe I have embarassed you enough.  I'm
 JS> always pleased to see good, healthy skepticism in ALL areas.
 JS> That's how we "do" science.  The submission of unsupported

  Thank's for your explaination on what science is.  I never picked that up in
my 5 years of university.  Yes, that is sarcasm.  And I remain completely
"unembarased" by your points, they didn't say anything.

cont...

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 4 [5/6]
Date: 15 Sep 91 22:57:00 GMT

Round 4 Part 5

(2775)  Fri 13 Sep 91 12:20p
By: Maury Markowitz
To: Jim Speiser
Re: UFO Tape
St: Rcvd                                                             2774<>2776
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:43e5 172d6296
@MSGID: 1:250/712 28d0f36c
 JS> Have a nice day.

  Well, it's sure off to a good start. I guess getting insulted one one net was
not enough.

 JS>   Interesting. You do know that Phil I. tracked some ultralights to
 JS> a small airstrip, right? I have a file from him here somewhere, if
 JS> you want it. It's about a year or so old, but might have a bearing.

  Really?  I don't think they let ultralights fly at night up here, and they
don't have lights.

 JS> By: Jim Speiser
 JS> To: John Hicks
 JS> Re: Hudson Valley Tape [3/3]
 JS> St: Local Sent
 JS> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 JS> In a message to Jim Speiser <09-04-91 23:48> John Hicks wrote:
 JS>
 JS> JH>    Interesting. You do know that Phil I. tracked some
 JS> ultralights to a
 JS> JH>  small airstrip, right? I have a file from him here somewhere,
 JS> if you
 JS> JH>  want it. It's about a year or so old, but might have a bearing.
 JS>
 JS> Yes, I'm aware of that. It was what convinced him that there were
 JS> two things going on at once: (a) an object of unknown origin, and
 JS> (b) some pilots goofing around. At least some of said pilots were
 JS> operating from Stewart Air Force Base, which was supposedly closed.
 JS> The pilots have certainly thrown a monkey wrench into the whole
 JS> deal, but the object remains unexplained.

  Jim, I'd like to know what makes you think that aircraft are NOT an
explaination.  The tape you gave me showed one "unexplained" object being
explained on the other as aircraft.  Do you think that the fact that no one
else got close enough to tape it from where they could see it better (and hear
it, of course) is enough to make me think that planes are not a good enough
explaination?  Sorry, not to me.

 JS> By: Michael Schuyler
 JS> To: Jim Delton
 JS> Re: Hudson Valley Tape
 JS> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 JS> In a message to Jim Speiser <09-03-91 21:59> Jim Delton wrote:
 JS>
 JS> JD> RE: Cockpit lights
 JS> JD> to other aircraft.  I don't even think a 152 has cockpit
 JS> JD> lights of the type that would provide that sort of
 JS> JD> illumination, I think is just has downward focussed spot
 JS> JD> lights likethe reading lights in commercial aircraft.  I
 JS>
 JS> That is exactly right. The average 152 has a red focused light that
 JS> shines directly on the panel. I'm a pilot. If the notoriously
 JS> bare-boned Cessna 150 series has a bright white light in the
 JS> cockpit, I sure never have found it.
 JS> --Michael

  Now HERE's some INFORMATION.  Here's a guy that completely blows me away
without even having to "embarase" me.  This information can be DAMBING, if no
other plane has white cockpit lights and a window behind the wing.

cont...

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 4 [6/6]
Date: 15 Sep 91 22:58:00 GMT

Round 4 Part 6

(2776)  Fri 13 Sep 91 12:26p
By: Maury Markowitz
To: Jim Speiser
Re: UFO Tape
St: Rcvd                                                                  <2775
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:43e5 172d635d
@MSGID: 1:250/712 28d0f4e2
  The Beech I jump from has the former but not the latter, etc.  Again, it was
the pilots at the club that thought that the 152 would better match the light
patter (one large one with a small one behind it), but that was with MY opinion
that that's waht we were looking at.  Since getting dragged into this idiocy,
I've even notcied that planes turning towards you with white lights on the
wings would provide a similar patter, which matched OTHER evidence in that the
object slowly makes a turn towards them.  Fell free to attack this as well, I
don't care.


  So, I hope I've replied to all of you.  BTW, take the "aircarft
identification test tape" and please put it where the sun don't shine.  Thank
you.

  So, now I'm in a GREAT mood.  Perhaps I should go drown some cats or
something...  One last time people, don't call me, I'll call you.  And to you
Jim, you just ruined what could have been a real good friendship.

Maury

p.s.  Just an opinion, of course.

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Confirmation
Date: 15 Sep 91 22:59:00 GMT


Can someone from ParaNet please netmail Maury at 250/712 and testify that the
preceding messages were cross-posted here from SCIENCE? Thanks....


Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: aixssc.ibm.co.uk!rob
Subject: Dave and Doug on Hoaxes
Date: 16 Sep 91 21:35:02 GMT

From: Robert Trevelyan <[e-mail]>


I have not been around for a week and have missed all the fun by
the looks of things,

In England the crop circle season is now over as just about all fields
have been harvested. Recent events have brought about details of a
ministerial meeting in London about a year ago when Margaret Thatcher
was still PM.(though she was not present at the meeting).The purpose
of the meeting was to discuss Crop Circles and three ministeries were
involved in this namely Defence, Agriculture and Environment.
It was agreed at this meeting that the cause of Crop Circles was completely
unknown and and the meteological theory was *out of hand* and that all
crop circles were *not* hoaxes although there had obviously been a fair
few hoaxes.
Responsibility for keeping a watch on crop circle developments was handed
over to the Ministry of Defence whose brief was to take *appropriate action*.
The MOD were to update the other two ministries but during this meeting
the word 'disinformation' was mentioned on several occasions.The above
details were passed on by someone who attended the meeting.

During the last few weeks it appears as if this disinformation campaign
has actually started by the arrival of Dave and Doug. There is at present
no way of finding out who is behind the disinformation campaign but it is
certainly being seen to happen.The newspaper 'Today' has now produced two gents in the 60's who claim

to have been creating crop circles for the last
13 years.They can obviously only fool a few people with these claims as even
if all crop circles were hoaxes two people of any age would not be able to
create formations all over the English countryside let alone the world.
The assertation by the Today newspaper, famous for quoting that the 1990
pictogram at Alton Barnes was a Sumarian warning to double your wells as
there was going to be a drought,(could have been mistaken for oil wells
in the Gulf that needed the warning), that this explains the crop circle
phenomenon is absurd.

The scam relied largely on catching one of the leading Circles experts in
a trap which was carefully laid for him. This was undertaken by a informing
Pat Delgado that a strange crop circle formation had appeared in a field in
Sevenoaks, Kent, England, the paper said they believed it to be a hoax and
that the farmer also was sure it was a hoax. They asked if Pat D would give
a professional opinion.

Pat Delgado agreed and travelled to Ightham near Sevenoaks and was taken to
see the formation which, to his amazement, was an 'insectogram' formation
closely resembling the ones in the Hampshire in June and July of this year.
All the features were present of the usual 'insectogram' although imperfect
but Pat D gave his unqualified blessing which was recorded on tape and he
was filmed in the formation by a camera crew in a helicopter. The trap had
closed in on him.

The Today newspaper then waited until Sunday before bringing two alleged
hoaxers, Dave and Doug to Pat Delgado's house.There they confronted him
with a film taken of the two hoaxers making the formation in Kent that
Pat D had said was genuine.They claimed to have been faking circles for
13 years near Winchester and so on..Pat Delgado had to then make any
concessions that the Today newspaper demended of him. It is interesting
to find that at a later stage of the confrontation Colin Andrews appeared
and fought back by cross-questioning Doug and Dave. He soon found that
they were unable to answer many questions and their minders withdrew them
before their case was badly damaged.

Obviously at the stage the irreparable damage had been done to Pat Delgado's
reputation but nevertheless no concrete evidence had been presented that
Dave and Doug had faked any other known circle or pictogram apart from the
bogus one at Kent which has been conveniently removed in the meantime by
harvesting. The two appeared on TV on Monday to demonstrate to the press
and the TV how they create such a formation in a wheatfield in Chilgrove,
Sussex.The dumb-bell formation which they produced was a pathetic mess and
could be clearly seen on TV as such although the two hoaxers complained
that was due to over-ripe wheat.

The story in the Today Newspaper originated from a shadowy outfit called
'MBF Services' who suplied the story to Today and have doubtlessly paid
Dave and Doug, also indemnifying them against all lawsuits and claims
of criminal damage from Hampshire farmers.
MBF Services have been tracked down to an accomodation address in
Shepton Mallet near Bristol, England and are registered clients of an
expensive up-market firm of accountants, Barclay Jackson. All attempts
to identify the people behind MBF Services have failed and the Today will
either side-step or remain silent. The firm of accountants describe their
clients as a 'scientific research and development' company but obviously
what or whoever is behind this front has a great deal of financial backing.
Undoubtedly this is infact a well organised and long planned attempt to
rubbish the crop circle phenomenon and may even turn out to be
government-inspired but when the 1992 season brings its new crop then
this fiasco will end.

I have personally met both Dave and Doug about 2 years ago at the site of
of a formation near Winchester. Dave is retired and has a hobby of recording
bird songs on a portable tape machine. He told me,whilst at the side of the A272
main road that passes by Cheesefoot Head Winchester,that he had been
wandering through some crop fields recording bird songs back in the 1970's
when he came across a flattened swirled area of corn. A bit amazed he
wandered around the formation trying to ascertain what it was and unknowingly
left his tape recording. Basically when he played back the tape after he had
been in the crop circle he heard voices on a tape which was a brand new tape
previously, the voices were not heard whilst he was alone in the formation
but nevertheless he claimed he recognised the voices as a converstion he had
had 30 years previously. I am not sure how he knows this or even if I believe
what he told me but it kinda shows he did not hoax crop circles back then
and was very enthusiastic about the crop circle we were by at the time and
could offer no explaination of how it had been created.

Doug was the more genial of the two he said at the time, back in 1990,
that he 'could just imagine them [UFO's] darting between two clouds', that
were at the time directly over Winchester, 'and creating a crop circle'
The day was very overcast and the clouds were the dark grey variety we get
quite a bit in the UK but there was a bright gap between two of these.
He definatley gave me the impression he was interested in UFO's and the
like and said to have taken photographs of crop circles (plain circles)
back as far as tha mid 70's but I never saw any of these.

One thing that really struck me is that they were not very pleased with
either Pat Delgado or Colin Andrews as they believe they (PD and CA) had
not given Don Tuesley, one of the original crop circle researchers, any
thanks for his help in the then current book 'Circular Evidence'. Dave
and Doug believed that the fame had gone to both Pat Delgado's and Colin
Andrews heads and that they did not give anyone else any credit for help
they received. I know both Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews and totally
disagree that this is the case as they go out of their way to credit any
photos or information received from anyone. I have had the privilege of
having a mention in their book 'Crop Circles- The latest Evidence' for
finding the first pictogram, although Pat D seems to call me Bob and adds
an extra L. I am not alone in being credited with information or photos
as one can see in their books.

Sorry to waffle a bit but my opinion is that Dave and Doug are off their
trolley and I do not believe all crop circles are hoaxes by 'D+D hoaxes'
or not. There is a genuine phenomenon and it is not a vortex, note that
D+D never claimed to have created any formations in Wiltshire.
PS. If you see a grey Nissan Sunny by the side of a field with two gents
in their 60's in it thats Dave and Doug hoaxers extraordinaire.

+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                          DISCLAIMER:                              |
| The views expressed in this document are not a corporate view     |
| nor reflect the views of my employer by any means but are my      |
| own personal views on this subject .                              |
|                                                                   |
| Robert Trevelyan   UKnet: [e-mail] |
| AIX Communications    VNET: TREVELR at BASVM2     |
|      Voice: [phone]     |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: The Continuum
Date: 16 Sep 91 00:55:00 GMT

After a small delay, the premier issue of Continuum, ParaNet's official
bi-monthly news magazine is ready to go to press.  This is a final call for
you to get a free first issue, by sending your name and mailing address via
this network or email to [e-mail].

Don't miss out!!  It ships on Friday, September 20th.

Mike

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Implants
Date: 16 Sep 91 17:54:00 GMT

In a message to All <09-15-91 16:22> Keith Basterfield wrote:

KB>  explain the x-ray in conventional terms. I later reported that a full
KB>  mouth x-ray had failed to detect any such "implant".

That's fascinating, Keith. Is the implication here that the "implant" was
recovered, or simply that the first x-ray may have been in error?

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
Date: 16 Sep 91 17:58:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <09-15-91 11:24> Peggy Noonan wrote:

PN>          So, on AltIII, do you indeed have a file on that Leslie
PN>  Watkins story or did I misunderstand?  And if so, probably the best

I have a letter from the author in a file here. Apparently the whole thing
was a work of fiction. I think the file is called ALTERN3.TXT, or something.
You're welcome to download it, or I can send it to Alpha (unless its there
already?)


On the Ogden thing, did you see where there are now some cattle mutilations
taking place in the Idaho Falls area?

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: media-lab.media.mit.edu!kjohnson
Subject: for Paranet newsletter
Date: 17 Sep 91 13:33:05 GMT

From: Keith Johnson <[e-mail]>


To all UFO readers (alt.alien.visitors) and Paranet readers:

Recetnly, I posted to S.R.E. newsgroup a brief synopsis of 'mantra' meditation.
In other words, I chant the names of God as a daily meditation - sacrifice
for spiritual benefit,  my question to the net is  -
does anyone beieve the greys or Nordics to be 'yogis' of any sorts?

Are the greys or Nordics visitors religious in any way? Do they have a concept
of deity - do they chant Hare Krishna or any other sacred mantra - are they
maybe devotees of Lord Shiva - who always bestows great material opulance to
his devotees?  Just curouius.

The reason for asking is because these visitors apparently have great technology
and maybe are sharing it with our government (/)(?) Perhaps they really
are demons in astral/etheral bodies who can materialize or take on a gross
body temporaily for their own reasons at will.  Or, maybe, they are yogis
who are advanced and acan actually ha  help us with our problems of famine,
overnment corruption, ignoramnce from the absolute truth, war and even
death.

I was recently talking to fellow seekers who agreed that enlightenment
means 'liberation from ignorance' or ultimately - freedom from death - por
or even better put - 'immortality'.   Are the greys immortal??
Have they achieved what some mystics have claimed to have achieved??

Please email your responses to [e-mail]

keith j.
boston, ma




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Re: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
Date: 18 Sep 91 00:49:00 GMT

>ALTERN3.TXT, or something. You're welcome to download it, or I
>can send it to Alpha (unless its there already?)
>On the Ogden thing, did you see where there are now some cattle
>mutilations taking place in the Idaho Falls area?
        Hi Jim,
Thanks very much for the filename.  I'll check Alpha and see if it's
here and if not, I'll call your BBS for the file.  It helps to knoow
what you're looking for!
No, I didn't see about the cat.mutes. nedaho Falls!  Mu
--sorry, bad line noise -- mucho interesting stuff. Where could I
learn more
BTW, I have an old atlathat doesn't show a town with a name like
Ammon on Idaho's map.  Can you give me an idea where to look or have
I misunderstood the nam
Thanks, again, for all your help!
                                ==Peggy==
--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Crop Circles=RMN story#1
Date: 18 Sep 91 00:50:00 GMT

Source:  The Rocky Mountain News
Date:  Sunday, September 15, 1991
Page:  44, Science & Environment
Title:  Crop-Circle hoax claim debated
(Two articles appear under that title.
The second will follow in a separate item.)

Subtitle:  Confession of trickery fails to persuade pair from
           Boulder County that mystery is solved
Author:  Bill Scanlon, News Environmental Writer

   Precise, mathematical crop circles probably weren't made
by a couple of guys dragging a board, either, say two Boulder
County investigators who are attending the first "Cornference"
in Glastonbury, England.
   Claims last week by two 60-year-old Englishmen that they
fabricated 200 of the circles only make Tere Kristovich of
Louisville more certain that the circles are an intriguing mystery.
   People are going to extraordinary lengths to discredit the corn
circles, Kristovich said by telephone form southern England.
"There seems to be an element of some kind of coverup.  You don't
cover up something unless you have something to cover."
   David Chorley and Douglas Bower last week said they created 200
of the circles over the past 12 years as an antidote to boredom and
to chortle at the claims that they were made by superior
intelligence.  About 400 of the circles showed up this summer in
souther England, 750 worldwide.
   They claim to have made the circles by dragging a plank over
cornfields, while wearing baseball caps with wires attached to the
brim.  By focusing the wire on a distant objects, they could make
precise geometric lines, they said.
   "Even if it is a hoax, it's certainly not these two turkeys,"
said Kristovich.  "Some of the circles are geometrically perfect --
the works of geniuses.  The circles are brilliant."
   The intriguing questions are these, say Kristovich and her
partner, Kit McCray of Boulder:  Why are humans enraptured by the
mystery?  Does it speak of a yearning for a shift of consciousness?
   Kristovich says she and McCray aren't pushing a particular
theory but are intent on keeping the curiosity alive so it can be
solved.
   Some of the circles are geometrically precise and mathematical.
Some look like petroglyphs of Hopi Indians, who preach harmony with
Earth.
   Hector Cruz, a chemical engineering student at Colorado School
of Mines, says some of the circles are not obvious hoaxes.
   Those circles have an electromagnetic field that affects
magnetic and videotape, he said.  Crops are bent over but not
broken, and the stalks are interwoven, he said.
   Cruz doesn't believe it's UFOs but says the Star Wars project
may be making the circles with electro-magnetic pulses or lasers.
Or it may have be [sic] linked to Earth's magnetic poles shifting.
     -30-

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Crop Circle-RMN arte#2
Date: 18 Sep 91 00:51:00 GMT

Source:  The Rocky Mountain News
Date:  Sunday, September 15, 1991
Page:  44, Science & Environment
Title:  Crop-Circle hoax claim debated
(Two articles appear under that title.
The first appeared in a separate item.)

Subtitle:  Former magician who investigates cornfield marks says
           the have all trappings of graffiti
Author:  Bill Scanlon

   The intelligent lifeforms that created the 750 cryptic crop
circles worldwide most likely are farmers or their teen-age kids,
who are laughing their overalls off right now, says an investigator
of the phenomenon.
   Crop circles, like graffiti, appear at night, spread from coast
to coast and have all the trappings of a social fad, says Joe
Nickell,a  former magician who says they have nothing to do with
UFOs or swirling wind.
   Now that a pair of 60-year-old English farmers have admitted to
creating 200 of the hoaxes, some believers say the new ones may be
frauds, but the earlier ones were metaphysically created.
   Might as well believe that most graffiti are copycat, but the
first were sprayed in the dead of night by other-worldly beings,
says Nickell.
   Other investigators sharply disagree with Nickell, saying the
number, complexity and suddenness of the circles points to
mysteries in the atmosphere or beyond.
   The crop circles appear only in areas of the world served by
modern electronic media, talk shows in particular, says Nickell.
   A farmer reports, "I sure didn't see any circles when I went to
bed but in the morning, there they were."  What planet would be so
nefarious to make cornfield art only at night? Nickell asks.
   The circles have become increasingly complex and artistic, and
those with mathematical symbols might have been done by university
students, he said.
   "Like goldfish-swallowing, it's a process of social contagion,"
said Nickell, who also likened it to a joke or a graffiti slogan
swiftly spreading from coast to coast.
   Nickell, a doctor in English at the University of Kentucky and
a former private detective, has written several, books challenging
claims of the paranormal.
   He traces the crop-circle phenomenon to the late 1970s, about
the time of the movie, _Close Encounters of the Third Kind_ was
released.  Pranksters burned circles in the ground to show UFO
landing spots or made circles in fields.
   In southern England, the swirling circles forged a life of their
own, he said, clustering around Warminster, known as the UFO
capital of the world.
   As for claims that the circles are formed by wind vortices:
Why, say meteorologists, did nature wait till a dozen years ago to
produce winds to make such circles?
                              -- Bill Scanlon
    -30-
--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: 2ntry:Crop Circle #1
Date: 18 Sep 91 00:52:00 GMT

Source:  The Rocky Mountain News
Date:  Sunday, September 15, 1991
Page:  44, Science & Environment
Title:  Crop-Circle hoax claim debated
(Two articles appear under that title.
The second will follow in a separate item.)

Subtitle:  Confession of trickery fails to persuade pair from
           Boulder County that mystery is solved
Author:  Bill Scanlon, News Environmental Writer

   Precise, mathematical crop circles probably weren't made
by a couple of guys dragging a board, either, say two Boulder
County investigators who are attending the first "Cornference"
in Glastonbury, England.
   Claims last week by two 60-year-old Englishmen that they
fabricated 200 of the circles only make Tere Kristovich of
Louisville more certain that the circles are an intriguing mystery.
   People are going to extraordinary lengths to discredit the corn
circles, Kristovich said by telephone form southern England.
"There seems to be an element of some kind of coverup.  You don't
cover up something unless you have something to cover."
   David Chorley and Douglas Bower last week said they created 200
of the circles over the past 12 years as an antidote to boredom and
to chortle at the claims that they were made by superior
intelligence.  About 400 of the circles showed up this summer in
souther England, 750 worldwide.
   They claim to have made the circles by dragging a plank over
cornfields, while wearing baseball caps with wires attached to the
brim.  By focusing the wire on a distant objects, they could make
precise geometric lines, they said.
   "Even if it is a hoax, it's certainly not these two turkeys,"
said Kristovich.  "Some of the circles are geometrically perfect --
the works of geniuses.  The circles are brilliant."
   The intriguing questions are these, say Kristovich and her
partner, Kit McCray of Boulder:  Why are humans enraptured by the
mystery?  Does it speak of a yearning for a shift of consciousness?
   Kristovich says she and McCray aren't pushing a particular
theory but are intent on keeping the curiosity alive so it can be
solved.
   Some of the circles are geometrically precise and mathematical.
Some look like petroglyphs of Hopi Indians, who preach harmony with
Earth.
   Hector Cruz, a chemical engineering student at Colorado School
of Mines, says some of the circles are not obvious hoaxes.
   Those circles have an electromagnetic field that affects
magnetic and videotape, he said.  Crops are bent over but not
broken, and the stalks are interwoven, he said.
   Cruz doesn't believe it's UFOs but says the Star Wars project
may be making the circles with electro-magnetic pulses or lasers.
Or it may have be [sic] linked to Earth's magnetic poles shifting.
     -30-

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: op circle RMN #3
Date: 18 Sep 91 00:52:00 GMT


Source:  The Rocky Mountain News
Date:  Sunday, September 15, 1991
Page:  44, Science & Environment
Title:  Crop-Circle hoax claim debated
(Two articles appear under that title.
This item is a side bar accompanying those two articles.)

CROP CIRCLE LECTURE

Kit McCray and Tere Kristovich will show slides of crop circles and
present information from their recent trip to England in a Sept. 21
lecture at Colorado School of Mines in Golden, beginning at 7 p.m.
Cost is $8, $6 for students.  To order tickets, call 273-3234.  The
pair also will speak at the Divine Science Church, East 14th Avenue
and Williams Street, on Sept. 27, and at the Events Center in
Boulder on Sept. 28.
     -30-

[Note:  Location is Colorado.  Out of state callers use area code
303 and Mountain Time Zone.]---
--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: iv!!!
Date: 18 Sep 91 00:56:00 GMT

Hi Linda,
Quick note despite line noise -- got the package and it's fabulous!
Thanks so very much!  Yours is in the mail.
More next time.
                ==Peggy==
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********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************
                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 478

                         Thursday, September 19th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                Re: The Continuum
                               Re: Upcoming Shows
                                 Re: BeckleyCon
                                  Re: Oechsler
                       Re: Sheldon's Ufo Conspiracy Novel
                                 Re: Beckleycon
                                Re: Confirmation
                            UFO Conference in Orlando
                                Hudson Valley UFO
                            Re: How Old Are The 'grey
                                 Upcoming Shows
                                Weekly World News
                               HOW ABOUT THIS ONE?
                                 Re: UFO Seminar
                                Re: Crop Circles
                                 Re: BeckleyCon
                             Ron Reagan Show 9/12/91
                               Ron Reagan 9/13/91
                           Project VISIT and rumours?
                             Dave And Doug On Hoaxes
                                 Ron Reagan Show
                               Exasperated over HV
                           Project Visit And Rumours?
                                  Confirmation
                         Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
                      Re: Dave And Doug's Crop Circle Hoax
                                Op Circle Rmn #3
                           Project Visit And Rumours?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: The Continuum
Date: 18 Sep 91 02:39:42 GMT


In a message sent 17:55: 15 Sep 91, Michael Corbin wrote to All:

 MC> After a small delay, the premier issue of Continuum,
 MC> ParaNet's official
 MC> bi-monthly news magazine is ready to go to press.  This
 MC> is a final call for
 MC> you to get a free first issue, by sending your name and
 MC> mailing address via
 MC> this network or email to [e-mail].

Sure Mike.  I'll bite!

Jim Graham
4055 East Farr Rd.
Bloomington, Indiana  47408

Thanks,
Jim

)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Danny Brandenburg)
Subject: Re: Upcoming Shows
Date: 16 Sep 91 04:56:35 GMT

I only caught part two of the Ron Reagan special.  It was a pretty good
program.  Was it me or did ol' Ron seem to be in slight favor of the UFO
community?  It looked as if he would not recognize what Phil had to say.

                       Danny Brandenburg


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: BeckleyCon
Date: 18 Sep 91 03:54:00 GMT

Hi Vlad,

Thanks for the good chuckle!!  You asked how I knew that man was
"channeling Nikola Tesla in Hungarian."  Well, actually I didn't.  I
thought it was perhaps Polish.  At the break I ran off to call my
husband who is an engineer (and who wouldn't be caught dead at a
BeckleyCon) and innocently asked him if Tesla was Polish or just what.
He said he thought Tesla was Hungaria, so that's why I said that.

But, heck, Vlad, who are we to question Tesla coming thru in
"channeling" in whatever accent!?  It's all divine, ain't it?  <wink>

Thanks for the info and the chuckle!

Linda


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Oechsler
Date: 18 Sep 91 03:56:00 GMT

Hi Keith.

Will get out the info to you on Big Bob O. in a few days.  I'm running
around in circles this week (and not crop circles, either).

Regards,

Linda


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Sheldon's Ufo Conspiracy Novel
Date: 18 Sep 91 04:54:00 GMT

Hi Mike,

Yep, I bought it Sunday; it's called THE DOOMSDAY CHRONICLES.  I
haven't read more than 100 pages, but so far it has been interesting.
The aliens are described as plant-like.  They are disgusted at how
Earthlings continue to pollute the planet and plan to destroy it.
Some world governments know this, and are rushing to set up some Star
Wars defense weapons to counteract.

Sheldon is clever in how his spy-hero manages to track down all the
witnesses who saw the crashed saucer and the two dead aliens.  One
alien is missing.

That's about how far I have gotten.  I'll try to quote a passage at a
later date.

See ya,

Linda

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Beckleycon
Date: 18 Sep 91 04:56:00 GMT

Hi Tom,

We'll get to the bottom of Tesla's native language yet!

Thanks for ideas,

Linda


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: Confirmation
Date: 18 Sep 91 05:34:00 GMT

Did Maury seem upset about something???  I sense that undercurrent in
his posts.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: UFO Conference in Orlando
Date: 16 Sep 91 04:47:02 GMT


 > See what I added to Jim Speiser's remarks about the "BeckleyCon."

  Sounds just wonderful. ;-)
  At least you didn't have to sit through Dr. Frank Stranges too.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Hudson Valley UFO
Date: 16 Sep 91 04:48:03 GMT


 > You mean the same file I have, where he tracked them to some sort of
 > military base with a secret area that he couldn't determine the function
 > of?  Not to mention the cattle the FDA kept there?

  Yep, I think that's it. Haven't looked at it in a while.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: How Old Are The 'grey
Date: 11 Sep 91 03:55:00 GMT

JS>Naw, don't think so...recall that the Hill's aliens were slightly different
JS>from what we're seeing these days. I think they looked more like Mr. Potato
JS>Head, at least from the movie and the drawings I've seen. (Sorry, Don, not
JS>making an Idaho joke here...)

AHEM, Jim, well don't cha know when you have Mr. Potato Head......
YOU CAN MAKE UP YOUR OWN!
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
Regards,
Kay
 + SLMR 2.0 +


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From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Upcoming Shows
Date: 11 Sep 91 04:04:00 GMT

JS>I have just learned that the Thursday, Sept. 12th installment of the new
JS>talk show hosted by Ron Reagan (the President's son) will feature UFOs. The
JS>guests include Phil Klass, Stan Friedman and Jacques Vallee. Its my
JS>understanding that this is quite an excellent new program, completely on the
JS>other end of the spectrum from Geraldo & Company. Now if I could only find
JS>out where and when its playing in Phoenix....

JS>Jim

JS>--- QuickBBS 2.75 Ovr (Gamma-2)
JS> * Origin: ParaNet(sm) Zeta-Reticuli   Scottsdale, AZ (9:1010/100)

EXCELLENT, but what no Don Ecker!
Jim, it is on the FOX network, here (in Northern Virginia) it comes on
right after STUDS!
It is a "really good shoe", on the first couple of nights, he laid to
rest the "ron regan is gay issue", by stating that his wife would know
it by now, and the "your ronald regans son issue" by stating"my father
was elected president, not me".
An intellegently done, well moderated show from what I've seen so far.
GEE, aske and ye shall receive.
Regards,
Kay
 + SLMR 2.0 +


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From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Weekly World News
Date: 12 Sep 91 17:45:00 GMT

NC>shuttle gangplank.  Now, the really good part was the inset photo, which
NC>showed exactly the same picture, but without the alien -- just a space
NC>between the first shuttle pilot and the rest.  The caption under *this*
NC>photo
NC>says 'NASA re-released this crudely retouched photo to cover up the alien
NC>rescue!'

NC>Then there was another one showing the alien with George Bush in what looked
NC>like one of those stand-up cardboard cutouts you can get your picture taken
NC>with, at malls and such.

NC>Probably not the preferred discussion matter for paranet, but I found it so
NC>funny I thought I had to send it on.

On the contrary...I feel this type of outragious 'crap journalism'
should be mentioned from time to time.  It reminds us how far some will
go to distort reality, and mess up real research...while
keeping the masses in the dark (and providing humor at the same time).
:-)


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From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: HOW ABOUT THIS ONE?
Date: 12 Sep 91 08:15:00 GMT

PP>   A newspaper said Monday the mysterious wheatfield circles in southern
PP>England that have baffled scientists for years were a hoax created by two
PP>men who have come forward to claim responsibility.
PP>   The tabloid Today said Douglas Bower and David Chorley of Southampton
PP>contacted the newspaper and gave detailed information about how they planned
PP>and executed each design since the late 1970s. The newspaper said it paid no
PP>money in connection with the story.
PP>   The men used four-foot planks with rope reins to flatten the wheat and
PP>produce circles, the story said. Straight lines were made using a simple
PP>wire
PP>"gunsight" on a baseball cap that allowed the men to walk while aiming at a
PP>distant object, it said.
PP>   The wheat was bent down rather than broken so farmers could still harvest
PP>the crop, Today said.

  Does their method bend down all the stalks without breaking a *single*
  stalk?  That is the mystery that I have been curious about, the
  bending down of the stalks without breaking a single stalk.

  I saw this story on the 11 o' clock news in Washington, D.C.  The
  media does not cover the other stories, but immediately accepts the
  hoax story?

  Since they have admitted to hoaxing those circle/pictograms, we'll
  know more if they are telling the truth, if the circles/pictorgrams
  continue or not.  If they stop, they'll be believed.  If they don't,
  well.. they've got egg on their face.  The media will too, but they'll
  never admit it.

                                                        Tyson
 * SLMR 2.0 * From an explorer.............


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From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: UFO Seminar
Date: 17 Sep 91 02:05:20 GMT


 -=> Quoting Vladimir Godic to ALL <=-

 VG> The following is a report  by Keith Basterfield after attending a
 VG> recent UFO seminar in Sydney, New South Wales.
 VG>
Thanks for posting this review, it's good for us all to see what's going
on outside of the US.

 VG> Jerry Clark talked over the two  days on the U.S.A. cover up legend,
 VG> from Roswell in 1947 through to the present.  Jerry believes that the
 VG> 80s legends are disinformation from U.S. Air Force intelligence.  He

Another reason for the disinformation? Perhaps as Vallee said on the Ron Regan
Show the other night, the BIG coverup is that THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.
Therefore better to have rumors going around that they are hiding aliens
than to admit they don't know.

Regards,
Kay

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From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles
Date: 17 Sep 91 02:08:24 GMT


 -=> Quoting ncar!yak.boeing.com!rjp2011 to All <=-

 n> The obvious thing to watch for now is any new crop circles.

Yes, but if they have already harvested (have they???) these plank guys get
a WHOLE YEAR of publicity, plenty of time to write a book. (Sheesh!)

Regards,
Kay


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From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: BeckleyCon
Date: 17 Sep 91 02:17:39 GMT


 -=> Quoting Linda Bird to Jim Speiser <=-

 LB> said he then spent 5 years floating around as a spirit once he died
 LB> there on the Roswell desert, and then - poof! - he became a human.

I LOVE IT!

 LB> His ditsey wife passed out copies of a hymn and insisted we all sing
 LB> along with some old 90-year old Soprano.  Then Harley got up and ran
 LB> back and forth in front of us for a few minutes, as if to gather his
 LB> wits and get organized.  He gave us some personal background.  Then he
 LB> drew a picture of the Hollow Earth and explained it in faltering words
 LB> When asked "Where does the magma come from?"  -  Harley stammered and
 LB> hemmed and finally said, "From your Mind!!"  (I am NOT kidding!)  Then

OH Man! Now THAT's entertainment! Why don't we have these things where
I live! I live ouside of the beltway! We only seem to have CISCOP
conferences in D.C. (Strains of Ed Ames singing the Windmills of your mind..)

Regards,
Kay


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From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Ron Reagan Show 9/12/91
Date: 17 Sep 91 02:40:55 GMT

Comments on the Ron Reagan Show  9/12/91

I had the feeling that Ron tried to fit in too many guests for a one
hour show. I thought that the little anonymous clips after each commercial
took up time where people could be talking. If they showed the clips with
an explanation it would have been better. Otherwise I thought Ron showed
a genuine interest in the subject, he DID devote TWO shows to it.
He treated everyone fairly without a "these guys are wacko attitude,
but did have a sense of humor.

I really enjoyed seeing Vallee, he is so calm and makes so much sense IMHO.
He made a few good statements such as: "I am convinced that there is a real,
physical, UFO phenomenon, and I think, (turning to Klass) I could not prove
it to the National Academy of Science, Phil...But I believe that it is a
manifestation of a form of conciousness that's not human conciousness.
That does not mean necessarily that we are being visited by anything green
from another planet, there could be other possibilities. It's an opportunity
to do some good science, that's what good science is all about."

Later in the show he said: "I think that the BIG secret in Washington
may be that the Government has no idea what these things are. The
government has a lot of data, but that does not not mean that they
have any information. I think it is a crime that this data is not
released to the scientific community. I think we could have a
higher level of debate."

And also: "I don't understand why Phil is so upset about another
mystery, we don't understand the Sun, we don't understand the
immune system, all kinds of other things."

When an audience member asked why if there is so much evidence,
they are still called unidentified, Valle said: "We keep using loose
terms like belief and evidence. Science is not about belief, and
evidence is not somthing we have. We have a lot of interesting
and information, the science has never been done. There are a few
individuals who have spent their spare time and their own money...
trying to investigate those cases all over the world. I think
we have a good case, somthing should be pursued, but we have not
done the science, and until the science is done we are not going to
have the answers."

Another segment that I enjoyed was one where Ron said "People talk
about government coverups all the time, and it's pretty easy to,
the CIA's behind everything, and we know that now."

He then directed a question to Phil Klass "How credible are these reports?"

Whereupon Phil whipped out a Mufon Journal and paraphrased from a
reprint of a TOP SECRET Air Force and Navy Intellegence document dated
Dec. 10, 1948 titled [Analysis of Flying Object Incidents in the US],
which said that "UFO's were probabally spy vehicles developed by
German Scientists captured by Russians"

Friedman then jumped in to explain about security clearances, the
need to know, and compartmentalization of projects. Then Klass
said "The point is, if there were crashed UFO's at Roswell someone
forgot to tell the TOP Air Force, and Navy Intellegence officers".

Ron Said "If there was a government conspiracy wouldn't they publish
something like this to cover up the facts?"

To which Klass replied "To withhold the facts from the PRESIDENT
OF THE UNITED STATES?!"

Ron quipped "It's happened before!"

Klass went on "To withhold the facts from the Defense Department who's
job it is to defend the country?"

Ron asked, "But couldn't this be misinformation?

My favorite part of the show was toward the end when an audience member
said "Phil Klass, your time has come to an end, why don't you retire,
and GO FISHING! We are in a new era, UFO's are here, and they are
gonna stay here. They are not going away. GO FISHING!

It was pretty good.

Regards,
Kay
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From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Ron Reagan 9/13/91
Date: 17 Sep 91 02:44:38 GMT

Comments on Ron Regan Show 9/13/91

Again, I thought Ron treated the contactees (Shari Levy, Athena Demetrios)
fairly.

I guess that this segment was filmed before the guys with the planks said
they were responsible for the Crop Circles, because it wasn't mentioned.
I was a little disapointed that they didn't have the film that Eric
Beckjord spoke about. Out of all of the guests, Ron seemed to give Eric
the hardest time. UFOS Good! Bigfoot Bad! (But wasn't he a good
moderator, when the conversation wandered off topic!)

I thought Klass was a little silly accusing the contactees of "Dancing
with the Devil". Maybe he's changing hats from Skeptic to Comic Relief.
I mean, I may not necessarily believe someones story, but it's just not
fair to ridicule someone if they truly believe what they are saying.

I liked the first night better, and wished they had had two hours of the
first guests, but I think Ron wanted to show how diverse the topic is.

Regards,
Kay
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From: EBay.Sun.COM!Michael.Miller
Subject: Project VISIT and rumours?
Date: 18 Sep 91 17:36:09 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Michael Miller - Rev. Admin.)



Alright, if it is the intention of John Burke and Kurt Lochner to piss me
off, you did a good job.

I posted an inquiry based on information  I heard around +10 years ago.  I
was open and honest about everything I wrote in my postings.  I openly asked
if anyone had further information or knew of anything about VISIT to please
post the information.  I even answered honestly a list of questions someone
posted on the subject.

I have recently been trying to track down the NASA official who was part of
that project to get more information from him about it.

Yet, it seems that anyone trying to post an inquiry and to open a discussion
to get more information on this alias is subjected to being told his
information is not true and that they are deliberately trying to start some
rumors.

With these accusations on your postings and you have the audacity to say
I am starting rumors?   If anything, it is individuals like you who want
to start rumors and the worst kind... those that try to defame and mock
another person's sincere search for information.

If this is the type of rude and asinine behavior anyone can expect from
this alias, then I am on the wrong alias.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Dave And Doug On Hoaxes
Date: 18 Sep 91 23:07:00 GMT

Hello, Robert

That was certainly interesting material you mentioned in your post
about a ministerial meeting in London concerning crop circles. You
say this assembly met about a year ago? Can you supply any
references to corroborate this other than stating "the details were
passed on by someone who attended the meeting." You have to admit
that's rather vague and difficult to verify.

Now, concerning the essence of your post, namely the Bower and
Chorley hoax story. How can you possibly state that what happened
is part of a disinformation campaign? If you can not state who or
what is behind this campaign, your conclusion that it *is* one is
highly speculative.

Furthermore, you refer to this entire incident as a carefully laid
"trap" to discredit Delgado. Let's get real Robert, no one held a
gun to his head forcing him to make the determination that the
formation was 'authentic'. In fact, he was even *told* by the paper
and the farmer that it was a hoax! Yet, the 'expert' Delgado,
claimed that the formation *was* "the genuine article, of the sort
no human could have made".

The real question here as I see it is not how many circles Bower
and Chorley have hoaxed. It doesn't matter if it was 2,000 or 1.
What we *really* should be asking ourselves is how many circles
proclaimed to be bona fide by Delgado and Andrews, were in
actuality, man made.

Regards

-= Sheldon =-   Chicago, IL USA

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From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Ron Reagan Show
Date: 18 Sep 91 23:09:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <14-Sept-91> Don Allen wrote re: The
Ron Reagan Show telecast 13-Sept-91:

DA> What _bothers_ me though is the fellow (whatzisname..the "loch
DA> ness" guy) specifically mentioned that he had brought the
DA> *video* of the object over the crop circles..this was the
DA> _same_ video that was shown at the Chicago MUFON symposium a
DA> few months back..

DA> Reagan's response was "we might have lost it"...

DA> Ha! Right...sure :-)



Hello, Don

Actually, this incident is not as mysterious as one might initially
believe, once all the facts are known. As I have posted here
before, the tape that Colin Andrews showed in Chicago was not his
property. He had "borrowed"(note euphemism) it from the owner and
*copyright holder* over a year ago, who has had his lawyers trying
to get it back ever since! The tape never should have been shown in
Chicago. Apparently, the Fox network, in its' infinite wisdom,
decided they would be leaving themselves wide open for a lawsuit if
they broadcast the tape.

Now, as an update to the Chicago incident let me add this. As you
probably know, MUFON is selling video tapes of the entire
symposium, *including* the "soon to be famous" borrowed tape. Guess
what happened, Don? The copyright holder has filed a lawsuit
against MUFON, charging them with *selling* his tape without
authorization, and asking for damages and restitution equivalent to
65% of all gross MUFON tape sales!

I sincerely believe that MUFON was unaware of the circumstances at
conference time, but once they had knowledge of the situation, that
segment of tape should have been edited out. Can you believe
they're *still* selling the tapes with the "disc" segment intact?
I'll bet you know why! If MUFON edited out the copyright piece, I
can guaranty you we'd all be screaming *COVER-UP* as loud as hell!

Sorry, Don... but there's no cover-up here. The poor chap back in
England is just trying to cut himself a business deal.
Unfortunately, he's no match for the team of Andrews and Delgado.

BTW, the tape is well worth viewing, _if_ you can find a legal
copy!


Take care,

Sheldon

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From: well!gmz
Subject: Exasperated over HV
Date: 19 Sep 91 02:26:17 GMT

From: well![e-mail] (Gerry Zeitlin)


Folks, I just have to throw in my two cents' worth on this Hudson
Valley discussion.  I can't believe this silly talk about
152s/182s has gone on for so long.

First of all, a 152's overhead lighting consists of a small
'flood' with a red filter that illuminates the instrument panel.
It has two little slots which can be opened to throw a tiny beam
of white light onto the pilot's and/or passenger's lap area for
the purpose of illuminating charts.  That's it.  A 182, as I
recall, has much the same arrangement, but there is additional
panel lighting.  In no case could either of these airplanes'
interior lighting create a light which could be seen from further
away than perhaps right outside the window.

And speaking of windows, I ask you, what the hell does it matter
how many windows the airplane has?  Any ten-year-old could tell
you that adding a window to the airplane will not make another
light appear.  I mean, is everyone in this discussion, including
those pilots at that flying club, a total blithering idiot?

As long as airplane types are concerned, one of these experts at
identifying planes could at least have suggested one which has
automobile-style dome lighting.  A Mooney, for example.

But I don't for a moment wish to support the notion that that
light pattern was created by aircraft interior lighting.

I saw that video myself somewhere - I don't recall where - and
from what I recall of it, all you could say about it was that the
lights were most likely connected by some rigid structure.
Period.

There is so little to go on in that video that you could have
predicted that any report of an explanation (note the spelling of
that word) would have been nothing more than a pure guess
selected from the options open to the mindset of the person
guessing.  It doesn't matter if the guy is the Director of JPL,
ok?  In fact, that would only serve to close down the options
available to the guy, if you know what I mean.

---------------------------------------------------------
gerry zeitlin    [e-mail]
---------------------------------------------------------


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From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Project Visit And Rumours?
Date: 19 Sep 91 07:15:00 GMT

Michael Miller writes:

 >
 > Alright, if it is the intention of John Burke and Kurt
 > Lochner to piss me
 > off, you did a good job.

No, it wasn't.

 > I posted an inquiry based on information  I heard around
 > +10 years ago.  I
 > was open and honest about everything I wrote in my
 > postings.  I openly asked
 > if anyone had further information or knew of anything about
 > VISIT to please
 > post the information.  I even answered honestly a list of
 > questions someone
 > posted on the subject.

I agree.

 >                    * * *

 > Yet, it seems that anyone trying to post an inquiry and to
 > open a discussion
 > to get more information on this alias is subjected to being
 > told his
 > information is not true and that they are deliberately
 > trying to start some
 > rumors.

I never accused you (nor anyone else) of deliberately trying to
start rumors.  In fact, I never mentioned your name (nor your
Internet address) in my post.

 > With these accusations on your postings and you have the
 > audacity to say
 > I am starting rumors?

Again: no accusations, no audacity, nor no mention of your name
appeared in my post.  If you can find anything like that, quote
it and post it.  Otherwise try to resist the temptation to fly
off with an _ad hominem_ attack like:

 >If anything, it is individuals like
 > you who want
 > to start rumors and the worst kind... those that try to
 > defame and mock
 > another person's sincere search for information.
 >
 > If this is the type of rude and asinine behavior anyone can
 > expect from
 > this alias, then I am on the wrong alias.

If you percieve my posting as "rude and asinine" then you may
actually prefer another alias to this one.  Might I suggest: the
FidoNet UFO echo?
Stay cool!
                                        --  John

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Confirmation
Date: 18 Sep 91 15:36:00 GMT


 > Did Maury seem upset about something???  I sense that undercurrent in
 > his posts.


Yes, I caught a tinge of hostility myself. I dunno, maybe I was a little
high-handed. I certainly don't want to alienate him at this point.

Jim

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
Date: 18 Sep 91 15:48:00 GMT


 > BTW, I have an old atlathat doesn't show a town with a name like Ammon
 > on Idaho's map.  Can you give me an idea where to look or have I
 > misunderstood the nam
 > Thanks, again, for all your help!
 >                                 ==Peggy==


Ammon is approximately 4 miles SE of Idaho Falls. Another town that was
mentioned is Ucon, approximately 8 mi NE of IF.

Jim

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Dave And Doug's Crop Circle Hoax
Date: 17 Sep 91 16:40:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
 * Originally from Bob Garwood
 * Originally dated 09-16-91 12:00

From: [e-mail] (Bob Garwood )
Date: 16 Sep 91 03:37:11 GMT
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andrew Ford)
writes:


   Did ever occur to _any_ of you skeptics that D&D claimed to
   have put up a hoax because they just can't accept any other
   explanation? NOT that I believe, or ever did believe, that
   the circles were evidence of anything.

   Its just that a lot of you have been blasting "psi believers"
   because "we believe what we want to believe."
   I am just wondering if any skeptics have given any thought
   to the possibility that the hoax is a hoax?

----

Actually, it was the first thing that occured to me before I read
the article.  However:

(1) They were observed making one crop "circle" (although, like most of
     these features in the crops, it wasn't a simple circle - is there a
     better word?).
(2) Production of this circle was sufficiently fast to allow for it
     to have been easily produced in one evening by a very small number
     of people (2).
(3) This circle clearly fooled someone known as a leading expert on
     the circles.

There are several explanations for the formation of these features:
(1) hoax, i.e. humans did it
(2) natural/meteorological - i.e. humans didn't do it but there's no need
      to go beyond established science to explain them
      (although we will allow that perhaps the natural explanation may turn
       out to be something theoreticians previously thought impossible)
(3) UFO or other explanation - not of this earth or science could
    never explain this one (perhaps this should be 2 sepearate classes,
     UFOS/extraterrestrials that if we only understood as much as they did
     we'ld view it as a natural phenomenon and PSI explanations)

Of these 3 explanations:

   (1) has been shown to be a valid explanation in one case.  This illustrates
       that it is possible to fool the experts.

   (2) I have heard mostly, I believe, anecdotal evidence that some
         weather/winds may produce circular patches in crops.  Clearly,
        a simple meteoroligical explanation can not explain the extremely
        complex patterns observed.  Therefore, for the bulk of these
        patterns, explanation (1) is preffered over explanation (2).
        A more complex explanation is necessesary plus either direct
        observation of a patter forming not via (1) or proof that a pattern
        could not have been formed via (1) [and, given that experts stated
        that the one case of a hoax could not have been a hoax, it will
        be more difficult to prove that other patterns could not be hoaxed].

   (3) In order for this to be taken seriously at all, (1) some UFOS or
        some such weirdness not identified as natural are observed forming
        a pattern, or (2) similar to what I said above, proof that a
        pattern could not have been formed by humans.

Clearly, the hoax hypothesis is by far the leading hypothesis to explain
these crop patterns.  (2) is a distant second, but only for the very simple
patters and (3) is extremely unlikely.

This ranking of explanations may change but it is clearly the current
ranking.

Bob Garwood, National Radio Astronomy Observatory
[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Op Circle Rmn #3
Date: 19 Sep 91 20:13:00 GMT


 > Kit McCray and Tere Kristovich will show slides of crop circles and
 > present information from their recent trip to England in a Sept. 21
 > lecture at Colorado School of Mines in Golden, beginning at 7 p.m.
 > Cost is $8, $6 for students.  To order tickets, call 273-3234.  The
 > pair also will speak at the Divine Science Church, East 14th Avenue
 > and Williams Street, on Sept. 27, and at the Events Center in
 > Boulder on Sept. 28.
 >      -30-

Thank you for uploading those articles Peggy.  I just met with Tere and Kit
and found them to be most interesting.  They have also agreed to a cooperative
effort with us in the future.  I will be uploading a report on this meeting
with them and the results of their recent trip to the UK.  They have many
interesting things and photographs.

Mike

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Project Visit And Rumours?
Date: 19 Sep 91 20:19:00 GMT


 > From: [e-mail] (Michael Miller - Rev. Admin.)


Mike,

I am sorry that you have taken offense here.  I do not believe that any was
intended.  As I told you, I have been looking into the project, and have found
that there is some information forthcoming regarding it.  I am planning on
posting whatever information comes my way.  In the meantime, please accept my
apology for any offense.  It is the intention of this network to offer a forum
where everyone can share their ideas and opinions without undue criticism.
However, as we tell everyone, please come prepared to defend your position as
debate is what this forum is all about.

Michael Corbin
Director

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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 479

                          Sunday, September 22nd 1991

Today's Topics:

                       crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
                                 Discovery hoax
                             Re: HVUFO Round 4 [2/6]
                              Kansas disappearances
                     Re: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
                               Re: Upcoming Shows
                                    Re: iv!!!
                                  Project VISIT
                             Re: Hudson Valley Tape
                                Tesla & Hungarian
                             Re: Exasperated over HV
                         Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
                                Op Circle Rmn #3
                                    Re: Iv!!!
                               HVUFO Round 4 [2/6]
                              Kansas disappearances
                                   Bentwaters
                         Re: Project VISIT and rumours?
                     Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                     Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                                Re: ogden object
                     Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                            Re: UFO Conference in Orl
                                    Implants
                                    Implants

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: vanth!jms
Subject: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
Date: 20 Sep 91 07:36:43 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

To: John Hicks

+  To get a little stranger, an article from the NYT News wire quoted *David*
+Delgado, whoever that might be. Could've sworn I saw Pat Delgado on CNN, so I
+assume an error in the wire story, but who knows.

The AP article definitely said Patrick Delgado, and I'm pretty sure the ABC
story did also.  (Although he was giving a different story in each one.)  I
haven't heard of a David Delgado either.

--
  *  From the disk of: |  [e-mail]   | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: Discovery hoax
Date: 20 Sep 91 07:36:56 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

To: Michael Corbin

+This may have been the big thing with Bob Oeschler a while back with the
+Discovery space shuttle where Blaha said, 'Houston, we have the alien
+spacecraft under observance.'  Although it sounded very good, no one could
+confirm nor deny that it was Blaha's voice on that tape.  That has never
+really gone any further.  NASA denied the whole thing.

I heard an explanation a few months later, from someone on Compuserve I
think. Apparently the shuttle downlink is rebroadcast from Goddard for the
amateur radio community, and someone in the area simply transmitted on the
same frequency.  Unfortunately my memory is fuzzy on whether this was *the*
explanation or just *an* explanation.  Does anyone have anything
definitive?

--
  *  From the disk of: |  [e-mail]   | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: Re: HVUFO Round 4 [2/6]
Date: 20 Sep 91 07:37:08 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

To: Jim Speiser

Maury Markowitz says:

+  Right at the start, I got into a conversation about the Gulf Stream UFO
+stories with another echo member.  I was interested that this story seemed to
+be so close to the Hudson Valley UFO stories in some ways.  Soon after, Jim

Jim,

Any idea what Maury thought similar between the Gulf 'Stream' :-) and
Hudson Valley cases?

--
  *  From the disk of: |  [e-mail]   | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: Kansas disappearances
Date: 20 Sep 91 07:37:20 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

Can anyone fill me in on the disappearance of two women and two daughters
of one of them in Russel County, Kansas?  The only thing I've heard so far
(just minutes ago on NBC) is that they were 'studying' UFOs and rumors are
rampant that the aliens have snatched them.  The authorities aren't happy
about all the fuss and say that they've recently gotten some solid leads
but it's a bizarre case.  My gut feeling is that when the truth is known
it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the GB-6, but I'd be a lot more
comfortable with better information.

--
  *  From the disk of: |  [e-mail]   | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: Re: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself?
Date: 20 Sep 91 07:37:32 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

To: Linda Bird

+You asked 'what other bothersome individual, loosely connected with the
+UFO phenomenon does this remind you of?'
+
+Ed Walters?

Good, but I was thinking more of Carlos Allende getting upset with Brad
Steiger and marching in to APRO to confess.  (Of course, this means that if
the two British gentlemen *really* want to have fun, they'll retract their
confession!)

--
  *  From the disk of: |  [e-mail]   | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Upcoming Shows
Date: 19 Sep 91 13:37:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <09-15-91 21:56> Danny Brandenburg wrote:

DB>  I only caught part two of the Ron Reagan special.  It was a pretty
DB>  good program.  Was it me or did ol' Ron seem to be in slight favor of
DB>  the UFO community?  It looked as if he would not recognize what Phil
DB>  had to say.

Being against Phil Klass does not automatically equate with support of the
UFO community. I think he thought they were ALL a bunch of dweebs.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: iv!!!
Date: 20 Sep 91 01:36:00 GMT

Hi Peggy,

Still running around in circles!!  No instructional aide at school and
it's a zoo!  Got your tape, and will try to listen to it in the car!
<:-)

Do me a favor if you can:  when you get the photo-copy of the "Ogden
Object," will you please photo-copy a copy of it for me??  Then I can
have it to compare with my drawing.

A million thanks!

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Paul Faeder)
Subject: Project VISIT
Date: 19 Sep 91 04:21:07 GMT


 > To find out the truth about Project VISIT one must
 > look no further than page 14 of the 1980 MUFON
 > Symposium Proceedings. This is what you will find:

This is from the book The UFO Encyclopedia by Margaret
Sachs, copyright 1980 (just FYI):

PROJECT VISIT (VEHICLE INTERNAL SYSTEMS INVESTIGATIVE TEAM)

The purpose of this research organization is to evaluate
engineering, medical and physiological data obtained by
abductees while restrained aboard UFOs.  Since many UFO
witnesses describe irregular motions and hovering
characteristics, the group thinks that the "F" in UFO may be
inappropriate.  It therefore refers to such objects as USV's
or Unidentified Space Vehicles.  It is Projects Visit's hope
that through the review of a number of abduction cases,
carried out with the cooperation of psychologist R. Leo
Sprinkle, characteristic USV systems will be identified.
The organization has determined that there are distinct
correlations numerous abduction cases.  However, it believes
that much information which should be acquired during an
investigation is not being sought by the investigators.
      This nonprofit organization was founded in 1976 by
John Schuessler, who serves as President; Gravil Pennington,
who serves as Vice-President; Alan Holt, who serves as
Secretary; and Dave Kissinger, who serves as Treasurer.
Consultants, most of whom posess doctorates, serve in an
advisory capacity.  The group has nine members.  Membership
in VISIT is by invitation of one of the Directors or
Officers of the corporation.  Although not a popular
membership organization, VISIT's objective is to interchange
information with the general public, educational
institutions, government agencies, doctors, scientists,
responsible UFO organizations, the news media and other
specialized experts.  The interchange is accomplished
through letters, semimonthly public meetings, articles in
scientific journals, magazines and newspapers, participation
in symposia, television and radio presentations and other
similar activities.

Their address: PO Box 877, Friendswood, Texas 77564 (but
remember that this is from circa 1980)

--
Paul Faeder - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape
Date: 18 Sep 91 18:32:01 GMT


 MS> That would be a really stupid thing to do unless you were
 MS> rated for IFR. If you turn on the lights inside the
 MS> cockpit, you can't see outside.

  Yep, that's just the point.

                        jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Tesla & Hungarian
Date: 19 Sep 91 04:10:00 GMT


 > Without addressing the issue of Teslas supposed medium, I
 > would point
 > out that in Europe, borders around many countries
 > (including Hungary)
 > were somewhat unstable and that it was not uncommon for
 > people in those
 > European countries to speak more than one language. For
 > some reason,
 > Hungarian was a popular second language in those areas.
 > ---


Actually, according to Man Out of Time (Margaret Cheney's superb
biography of Nicola Tesla), the Hungarian-speaking Tesla wouldn't
be at all far-fetched.  Tesla was without question an excellent
linguist, although (uncharacteristically) he didn't think enough
of his accomplishments to boast about them.

Tesla was Serbian, but was born and raised in Smiljan, Croatia,
near the Dalmnation coast (just across the Adriatic from Northern
Italy).  As such, he undoubtedly grew up speaking both Serbian
and Croatian, and he later added both German and Hungarian
(befitting an educated citizen of the old Austro-Hungarian
empire).

It has been recorded by many of his boyhood acquaintances in
Smiljan that he delighted in reciting poetry in English, French,
German and Italian.  In later life he impressed associates and
financial backers on three continents with his multilingual
poetry recitals.  But like most christians in the Balkans
(Tesla's father was a minister), he looked primarily to
Budapest, the eastern capital of the Austro-Hungarian empire of
the Hapsburgs.  (The almost equally numerous Moslems of the
Balkans looked to Istambul and Turkey -- *outside* the empire).

He attended the Central Polytechnic School in Graz, Austria (the
syllabus was in German).  While there as an undergraduate, he
read the *entire* works of Voltaire in French.  (Recall that
Voltaire wrote entire encyclopedias while a prisoner of the
Bourbons).

Tesla's first job was as an electrical engineer at the Royal
Central Telegraph Office in Budapest.  He was walking in the city
park, conversing in Hungarian with his friend Szigty and
reciting Goethe's Faust (from memory, in German) when he had his
famous vision of a polyphase AC generator.

So -- Tesla speaking in Hungarian thru a medium?  No problem.
Personally I think he could probably speak in any language he had
any interest in learning.

Best,
 Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Exasperated over HV
Date: 20 Sep 91 13:36:00 GMT

Where have YOU been?

You're absolutely right, Gerry, and that issue will be handled in my next
post to Mr. Markowitz. I believe the discussion has gone on long enough, and
has served its purpose. He seems to be sufficiently embarrassed as to be
feigning a lack of interest in the subject (a sure sign). I notice that none
of the bigwigs in the echo (with whom he attempted to curry favor) have
jumped to his defense. Now's my chance....

Now be a good boy and netmail me your new phone number!

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii
Date: 20 Sep 91 22:17:00 GMT

Hi Jim,
        Thanks for the info about Amon.  Sorry my message was so
garbled, but I'm glad you were able to decipher enough to make sense
of the question!
        I'll check a more current map.
        Thanks, again.
                                        ==Peggy==
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Op Circle Rmn #3
Date: 20 Sep 91 22:20:00 GMT

Mike,
        That's great news!  I'm glad the clips were of some
interest and I'll be eager to see what comes next now that Kit and
Tere will be joining you!
                                ==Peggy==
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Re: Iv!!!
Date: 20 Sep 91 22:22:00 GMT

>Do me a favor if you can:  when you get the photo-copy of the
>"Ogden Object," will you please photo-copy a copy of it for
>me??  Then I can have it to compare with my drawing.
>
No problem, Linda.  I've already made some extra photocopies and
will put one into an envelope for you today.  Thanks again for
sending them!
                                ==Peggy==
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 4 [2/6]
Date: 20 Sep 91 19:45:00 GMT


 > From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

 > To: Jim Speiser

 > Maury Markowitz says:

 > +  Right at the start, I got into a conversation about the Gulf Stream
 > UFO
 > +stories with another echo member.  I was interested that this story
 > seemed to
 > +be so close to the Hudson Valley UFO stories in some ways.  Soon after,
 > Jim

 > Jim,

 > Any idea what Maury thought similar between the Gulf 'Stream' :-) and
 > Hudson Valley cases?

Looking back, I can't remember. I think it was just the multiple sightings
aspect.

Jim

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Kansas disappearances
Date: 20 Sep 91 19:46:00 GMT


 > From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

 > Can anyone fill me in on the disappearance of two women and two
 > daughters
 > of one of them in Russel County, Kansas?  The only thing I've heard so
 > far
 > (just minutes ago on NBC) is that they were 'studying' UFOs and rumors
 > are
 > rampant that the aliens have snatched them.  The authorities aren't
 > happy
 > about all the fuss and say that they've recently gotten some solid leads
 > but it's a bizarre case.  My gut feeling is that when the truth is known
 > it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the GB-6, but I'd be a lot more
 > comfortable with better information.

Russell, Kansas? Isn't that where our old friend, Scott Corder, hails from? I
wouldn't be a bit surprised if he is involved....

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Bentwaters
Date: 21 Sep 91 06:33:00 GMT

Anyone have any comments or questions on the Bentwaters segment of last
week's Unsolved Mysteries?

John Burroughs has agreed to answer your questions through me. Sort of a
Group Q&A like we did with Budd Hopkins a couple of years back. Fire away!

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Project VISIT and rumours?
Date: 20 Sep 91 20:02:00 GMT

Hi Michael -- as to this...

nc>If this is the type of rude and asinine behavior anyone can
nc>expect from
nc>this alias, then I am on the wrong alias.
nc>

Please don't be discouraged.  This is a public forum, but you may depend on
the fact that there are people here who don't dismiss information like yours
out of hand.  Very much the contrary.

I hope you succeed in tracking down the folks with more information on the
VISIT project -- and I hope you're able to share some of what you
discover with us.

Best,
  Clark

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 21 Sep 91 23:48:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
 * Originally from Jack Sinclair
 * Originally dated 09-20-91 17:52

From: [e-mail] (Jack Sinclair)
Date: 20 Sep 91 15:18:39 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

In article <[e-mail]> Scott the Great
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Many discrepancies...  One of the biggest was something I saw presented on
>HBO many years ago.  Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light from the
>nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time.  It was clear that his
>observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY with the
>period of the lighthouse.  Weren't they also claiming that they were

What is 'EXACTLY' ?

>taken on board to repair the ship previously?  Anyone out there remember
>the full body of evidence against this case.  The one debunker they had
>on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had
>no personality.
>
>
>Scott

The debunker on the show shifted his eyes so fast, and so often, I kept
wondering what he was trying to hide from us.  All his body language said
was 'do not believe me'.
As for the lighthouse explanation: how could these people, having worked at
this place countless times before, suddenly see a lighthouse beam as an
alien device, and yet never again (except for the two other episodes)?


Jack.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 21 Sep 91 23:54:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
 * Originally from Michael Mcnulty
 * Originally dated 09-21-91 12:03

From: [e-mail] (Michael McNulty)
Date: 20 Sep 91 21:07:26 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


Having just finished watching the "Unsolved Mysteries" segment about
the Bentwater case, I have a couple of comments and a couple of
questions.

I though that the presentation of the case was extremely poorly done.
I'm not saying that the case isn't valid; I'm saying that the show
presented it badly.  They took 20 minutes to show what could have
been shown in 5 minutes.  I had a feeling that maybe they had bought
new special effects' machines for this season, so they had to use
them.  I can't stand "dramatic re-enactments" anyway, and this was a
good example of why.  I thought that the soldiers and Col. Halt were
good in their interviews.  Why "re-enact" what they can tell you?  I
think that their testimony was much more dramatic than the staged
stuff.  Anyway, the poor quality of the show raised these questions
for me:

The Colonel mentioned that he brought a photographer out with him.
What happned to him?  Did he take any pictures?  Did they come out?

The guy with the Geiger counter (or whatever it was) was all over the
place measuring everything, but only once could you hear him say
anything about getting high readings.  Were all of the other readings
(the landing circles that made up a triangle, the trees, etc.) all
normal?

The show made a big deal about them coming upon a farm house while
they were tracking the light.  The house was described as glowing, as
though it were on fire inside.  The narrator seemed to indiacte that
the soldiers were surprsied that they had come upon this house.  How
could soldiers on a base not know what was in the immediate vicinity
of their camp?  It wasn't a tiny lean-to or shack.  It was shown as a
two-story house.  Also, why was there no mention of anyone exploring
the house?  Did they?  Did anyone go in?  Who lives there?   What
became of this?  I can't imagine that nobody checked it out.

Like I said, the show ended up annoying me by raising these questions
and then not bothering to follow up on them.  Do any of you know the
answers to any of these questions?

Thanks a lot,

Mike

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: ogden object
Date: 21 Sep 91 17:14:15 GMT

In a message sent 18:36: 19 Sep 91, Linda Bird wrote to Peggy Noonan:
 LB> Do me a favor if you can:  when you get the photo-copy
 LB> of the "Ogden
 LB> Object," will you please photo-copy a copy of it for
 LB> me??  Then I can
 LB> have it to compare with my drawing.

Hello Linda.

You say that you have a "drawing" of this?

I too would like to see a "drawing" and a "photocopy" of the Ogden
doodads.  I'll gladly send postage and copy fees.

Regards,
Jim Graham
The Portal Dolmen BBS [phone]


)
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 22 Sep 91 06:44:00 GMT

Hi, Mike...

Are you able to cross-post to that newsgroup?

If so....

MC>  >Many discrepancies...  One of the biggest was something I saw
MC>  presented on
MC>  >HBO many years ago.  Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light
MC>  from the
MC>  >nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time.  It was clear that
MC>  his
MC>  >observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY
MC>  with the
MC>  >period of the lighthouse.

It did so for the first two rotations, after that there was no correlation.
You're talking about people who had seen the lighthouse on many occasions.
There were at least a dozen people present, SOMEONE would have said, hey,
that's just the Orford Lighthouse. Then there's the problem of the object
moving, not just appearing to make small movements, but actually making
gross changes in location. The lighthouse theory is dead. Sorry.

MC>  >taken on board to repair the ship previously?

An apocryphal story, told only by one airman who may not even have been
present. That part was left out on purpose, because the producers felt it
did not represent the concensus of statements as to what happened.

MC>  >the full body of evidence against this case.  The one debunker they
MC>  had
MC>  >on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had
MC>  >no personality.

Based on what he told me prior to the show, Maj. McGaha was apparently
heavily edited, I must admit. His interview actually lasted three hours, and
he did mention some salient points that need addressing. However, nobody
put words in his mouth, and he did actually say, "What they saw the first
night was unquestionably a bright bolide or meteor." Meteors don't show up
on radar, don't move upwards, and don't leave landing traces.

MC>  The debunker on the show shifted his eyes so fast, and so often, I
MC>  kept
MC>  wondering what he was trying to hide from us.

I know Maj. McGaha, that's simply a nervous habit. He does it even when
showing off his stereo equipment - something he LOVES to be open about!
I wouldn't read anything into that.

It's hard to defend a debunker, but let's be fair and confine ourselves to
the issues.

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: Re: UFO Conference in Orl
Date: 18 Sep 91 10:30:35 GMT


 LB> Hi Tyson,
 LB>
 LB> See my response to Jim Speiser about Sunday's "BeckleyCon" that I went
 LB> to.  Thanks!

  Ok.. I saw your message about that guy.  I know quite some intelligent and
thought-provoking people on the New_Age_Echo, and I wanted to make sure you
weren't associating anyone linked to the New_Age as "woo-woo" without
valid basis.

      Tyson

From an explorer........



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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Implants
Date: 21 Sep 91 23:49:00 GMT

Jim, the woman involved suggests that the aliens may have recovered
the implant. However, an independent dentist who looked at all the
x-rays for me believes that the original dentist's interpretation was
simply incorrect. I hope to fully document this story in my article
for the IUR. In short, don't hold your breath that this is THE proof.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Implants
Date: 22 Sep 91 16:53:00 GMT

Recently while Jerry Clarke was attending the Sydney International UFO
seminar, I raised the question with him, "When did implant stories
start?" One of the first references I can find in the 1980's is in the
Bennewitz saga. At one stage Bennewitz and Dr Leo Sprinkle regressed a
woman abductee. Amongst other things, what emerged from this woman was
that the aliens were surgically implanting mind control devices into
her skull to track her and use her as a "remote control." (Sources:
Clark, J. UFOs in the 1980's.Detroit. Apogee. 1990. p88-89. Blum, H.
Out There. pp230-231.)

Now, we are told that much of what Bennewitz believed was part of
a USAF disinformation campaign. So, does the implant section of the
abduction phenomenon originate from disinformation?

I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts, ideas, more factual information etc
on this matter.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 480

                         Thursday, September 26th 1991

Today's Topics:

                     Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                              1956 UFO Documentary
                                State of Ufololgy
                                Re: Confirmation
                             Re: Exasperated over HV
                      Re: Dave And Doug's Crop Circle Hoax
                                   Image Files
                              Kansas disappearances
                                    Implants
                                Re: Confirmation
                                 Re: Image Files
                              1956 UFO Documentary
                              Re: State of Ufololgy
                        Re: Re : How old are the 'greys'?
                             Re: Exasperated over HV
                               HVUFO Round 4 [2/6]
                              Kansas disappearances
                              1956 UFO Documentary
                              Kansas disappearances
                               UFO Events Calendar
                               UFO Events Calendar
                                  Ogden objects
                                Re: ogden object
                              Re: Tesla & Hungarian

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 21 Sep 91 23:48:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
 * Originally from Jack Sinclair
 * Originally dated 09-20-91 17:52

From: [e-mail] (Jack Sinclair)
Date: 20 Sep 91 15:18:39 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

In article <[e-mail]> Scott the Great
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Many discrepancies...  One of the biggest was something I saw presented on
>HBO many years ago.  Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light from the
>nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time.  It was clear that his
>observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY with the
>period of the lighthouse.  Weren't they also claiming that they were

What is 'EXACTLY' ?

>taken on board to repair the ship previously?  Anyone out there remember
>the full body of evidence against this case.  The one debunker they had
>on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had
>no personality.
>
>
>Scott

The debunker on the show shifted his eyes so fast, and so often, I kept
wondering what he was trying to hide from us.  All his body language said
was 'do not believe me'.
As for the lighthouse explanation: how could these people, having worked at
this place countless times before, suddenly see a lighthouse beam as an
alien device, and yet never again (except for the two other episodes)?


Jack.

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: cwns4.INS.CWRU.Edu!xx044
Subject: 1956 UFO Documentary
Date: 22 Sep 91 21:31:23 GMT

From: [e-mail] (UFOlogy SIG)


Next Friday, September 27, 1991 on TNT at 3:45 A.M. E.S.T. there
is a documentary called 'UFO.'  It was made in 1956.

I seem to vaguely recall seeing this when I was a kid.  I be-
lieve that it dealt with the overflights of UFOs over
Washington, D.C., and other assorted stuff of the time.  As
I recall, and I was only a kid, it was interested.  So, if you
got a Video recorder, this is a must from a historical perspec-
tive.  Looking at the T.V. guide is looks like it might run
2 hours and 15 minutes, but you can never be sure.

Best, Dale B. Wedge
      Co-SySop
      Cleveland Free-net
      UFOlogy Sig




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: State of Ufololgy
Date: 23 Sep 91 04:18:00 GMT


In a message to Jim Sanders <19-Sep-91 23:11> John Powell wrote:

JP> I also think that UFOlogy is about to, or is quite likely to,
JP> hit the skids soon. The recent and rather widespread
JP> popularization of 'aliens' and 'spaceships', which _could_ be
JP> a form of preparation for some revelation, _could also_ be the
JP> Big Setup. You know what I mean - all this hoopla and in the
JP> end - nothing. The ultimate, (for this generation anyway),
JP> discrediting of UFOlogy...

Greetings to all

I couldn't agree with John more...except to say that I feel we've
'hit the skids' already! Ufology has truly become a "War of the
*Words*".

I was just conversing with a man in Chicago, who's been involved in
ufology since Roswell. He's now in his mid 70's and told me he
knows little more about the phenomenon at present than he did 40
years ago. Recently, he has lost interest, and is selling off his
book collection.

Betty Hill is giving up lecturing at conferences because she says
there are now too many 'flakes' in the field. Even she does not
believe there have been as many 'abductions' as people claim.

Now, every black helicopter spotted is part of the cover-up. Each
new aircraft developed is touted as being a byproduct of 'alien'
technology. Every television commercial involving ET's or UFO's is
part of the government's 'adjustment and preparation' campaign.
'Mysterious' objects, implants, etc. are being found everywhere,
but nothing definitive ever comes of these 'breakthroughs'. Our
incessant hunger for more information is fed by the purveyors of
trash in the UFO periodicals. 'Fringe group' conferences abound
everywhere. Stanton Friedman even operates a '900' line where for
$2.00/minute, you can listen to old UFO material. What a rip-off!
Is that any way for a scientist to gain credibility?

Everyone seems to collect books, videos, documents, and case
histories - but to what end? This doesn't really bring us any
closer to the truth, but it does help line the providers pockets.
So, where do I think we're all headed? I guess I'll just have to
'channel' some Atlantean and find out. <grin>

Regards,

-= Sheldon =-

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: Confirmation
Date: 21 Sep 91 17:37:00 GMT

In a message to All <09-15-91 15:59> Jim Speiser wrote:

JS>
JS> Can someone from ParaNet please netmail Maury at 250/712
JS> and testify that the preceding messages were cross-posted
JS> here from SCIENCE? Thanks....
JS>
JS>
Jim,
  Thanks for the work you did getting it all in here. I think Maury is mad
at me, huh? I don't get it though. I thought we were talking about cockpit
lights, then suddenly we're talking about tail lights and landing lights.
Gee, I just wanted to say I'd never found a white cockpit light in the 150 I
flew. Didn't mean to set him off ;-). No need for a reply. It doesn't
matter. Thanks again.--Michael

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: Exasperated over HV
Date: 21 Sep 91 19:43:00 GMT

In a message to All <09-19-91 13:22> ncar!apple.com!well!gmz
no> First of all, a 152's overhead lighting consists of a small
no> 'flood' with a red filter that illuminates the instrument panel.
no> It has two little slots which can be opened to throw a tiny beam
no> of white light onto the pilot's and/or passenger's lap area for
no> the purpose of illuminating charts.  That's it.  A 182, as

Thank you for confirming what I also posted. Every 150 I've flown has a red
light for illumination to aid in night vision. Turn on a white light and
it's simple: You go blind. Thanks, but I'd just as soon see the runway.
--Michael

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: Dave And Doug's Crop Circle Hoax
Date: 21 Sep 91 19:50:00 GMT

In a message to All <09-17-91 09:40> Michael Corbin wrote:
MC> Clearly, the hoax hypothesis is by far the leading hypothesis to explain
MC> these crop patterns.  (2) is a distant second, but only for the very simple
MC> patters and (3) is extremely unlikely.
MC>
MC> This ranking of explanations may change but it is clearly the current
MC> ranking.

It's pretty obvious lots of the circles have been hoaxed, som ein front of
witnesses. And it's pretty obvious by demonstration that it's possible for a
couple of guys to trample on some wheat and make circles. Even though these
two 60 year olds couldn't possibly have created all the circles, copycat
hoaxers could be invoked to account for the rest. It amazes me why someone
would go to so much trouble and energy in the middle of the night, but
still, it is possible.

BUT, what I still don't understand is some of the very complex geometric
shapes that have been created, and ones I've seen pictures of. These shapes
are perfectly geometric, especially as seen from the air. They are very
complex as well. How could a couple of guys with gunsights attached to their
baseball caps create these complex patterns? I heard recently (and no
confirmation yet) that one of the latest circles has been identified as a
Mandelbrot set. Two guys with baseball caps? I'd surely like to know how
they did that.

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Image Files
Date: 23 Sep 91 07:07:00 GMT

Jim,

Could you digitize that drawing that Linda Bird has and distribute it to the
network?

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: Kansas disappearances
Date: 24 Sep 91 05:32:52 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

To: Jim Speiser

+Russell, Kansas? Isn't that where our old friend, Scott Corder, hails from? I
+wouldn't be a bit surprised if he is involved....

It was Russell County at least.  I'd have to check the tape I made as to
whether it was the city of Russell.

Who is Scott Corder?  I've heard the name, but it's not connecting with
anything at the moment.

Interestingly, I ran into one very bizarre tidbit about Russell today while
cleaning out some old messages on floppy.  Here it is:

+From: [e-mail] (Rich Woods)
+Subject: Prophecy
+Date: 20 Aug 90 00:38:00 GMT
+
+Well someone asked me about the prophecy file and I can't remeber who. I am
+putting it in the general message base as it does pertain to UFO's and may
+be of interest to most in light of the recent developements with the
+soldiers etc.
[lots deleted]
+          1990
+
+13.   Bob Dole,  of Russell,  Ks., becomes the next, greatest and
+last  president  of the United States.   Temporary 'white  house'
+set up in Russell.  Russell bombed and Dole escapes.
+
[more deleted]
+Note:  These prophecies  were received by Donna  between  about
+March, 87, to February, 88.

--
  *  From the disk of: |  [e-mail]   | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Implants
Date: 24 Sep 91 06:13:00 GMT




Yes, Keith...the implant issue is certainly an elusive one. Of
course, I guess that could be said for the entire UFO phenomenon.
It's interesting that the earliest reference to implants that Jerry
could come up with was from the early 1980's. However, quite a few
science-fiction films were made in the mid to late 50's which
involved alien cerebral 'implants' used to control the human mind.
One of these I remember was the classic _Invaders From Mars_. So
the implant stories (even though fictional in this case) began much
earlier than the 80's.

Your case pertaining to the submandibular implant and its'
subsequent removal/disappearance is evocative of a similar
experience involving a woman here in Chicago. Briefly, this woman
had become aware of a series of abduction experiences, prior to
which she had undergone an MRI to attempt to diagnose a cause for
her chronic back pain. The radiologist's report described an UBO at
that time, but told the woman that this was noted in approximately
5% of all patients, was not pathological, and was not the cause of
her back pain. In January of 1990, the woman went to have a second
MRI done by a physician in New York who was sympathetic to the
abduction phenomenon, and was doing a study on abductee's claiming
implants. Supposedly, although I have not seen the actual data, the
radiologist found 'nothing remarkable' after scanning a dozen
individuals and soon lost interest in the investigation.

Another major problem with the implant scenario is the fact that
allegedly there are scores of recovered implants being scrutinized
by 'un-named' scientists at 'un-named' institutions. Nothing is
verifiable! The evidence, as far as I can tell, remains anecdotal.

Keep up the good work Keith, and I look forward to reading your
next article in the IUR.

-= Sheldon =-

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Confirmation
Date: 23 Sep 91 18:58:00 GMT

Well, it turns out that there IS a white dome light in the 152, but don't
sweat it, there's not the slightest possibility that an aircraft can be
indentified from such as that.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Image Files
Date: 24 Sep 91 06:13:00 GMT


In a message to Jim Speiser <09-23-91 00:07> Michael Corbin wrote:

MC>  Jim,
MC>
MC>  Could you digitize that drawing that Linda Bird has and distribute it
MC>  to the network?
MC>
MC>  Thanks,
MC>
MC>  Mike
MC>

Now why didn't I think of that???

Consider it done.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: 1956 UFO Documentary
Date: 24 Sep 91 21:28:00 GMT


 > Next Friday, September 27, 1991 on TNT at 3:45 A.M. E.S.T. there
 > is a documentary called 'UFO.'  It was made in 1956.

OOOOOOOO, that's a CLASSIC! It was a sort of 50's docudrama, narrated by a guy
that sounded like George Fenniman, with a newsreel music bed, and military
recreations...a real period piece!

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Kansas disappearances
Date: 24 Sep 91 21:32:00 GMT


 > It was Russell County at least.  I'd have to check the tape I made as to
 > whether it was the city of Russell.

 > Who is Scott Corder?  I've heard the name, but it's not connecting with
 > anything at the moment.

 > +
 > +13.   Bob Dole,  of Russell,  Ks., becomes the next, greatest and
 > +last  president  of the United States.   Temporary 'white  house'
 > +set up in Russell.  Russell bombed and Dole escapes.
 > +


That's it, you've confirmed it. This "predictions" file came from Scott Corder.
I remember that he made a point of mentioning Bob Dole's hometown because it
was the same as his own.

Scott Corder is a gent who started making all sorts of neo-Biblical prophecies
a couple of years back, none of which came true. I have the complete file on
him somewhere.....


Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: State of Ufololgy
Date: 24 Sep 91 21:44:00 GMT

You've summed it up all too well!
There seems to be no solution; certainly none has shown up in the past
40 years.

--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Re : How old are the 'greys'?
Date: 15 Sep 91 04:53:00 GMT

Hi,
    Thanks for offering to mail the comic picture of the Greys to me.
I'll be sure to share them with others here in the area.  In return,
I'll send you an article from Tuesday, Sept. 10th's USA TODAY showing
how those two old gents in England claimed to have made the crop
circles.

   My address:
     1129 N. Sunview St.
     Mesa, AZ     85205

Thanks, and welcome back to the Board!

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Exasperated over HV
Date: 20 Sep 91 13:36:00 GMT

Where have YOU been?

You're absolutely right, Gerry, and that issue will be handled in my next
post to Mr. Markowitz. I believe the discussion has gone on long enough, and
has served its purpose. He seems to be sufficiently embarrassed as to be
feigning a lack of interest in the subject (a sure sign). I notice that none
of the bigwigs in the echo (with whom he attempted to curry favor) have
jumped to his defense. Now's my chance....

Now be a good boy and netmail me your new phone number!

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: HVUFO Round 4 [2/6]
Date: 20 Sep 91 19:45:00 GMT


 > From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

 > To: Jim Speiser

 > Maury Markowitz says:

 > +  Right at the start, I got into a conversation about the Gulf Stream UFO
 > +stories with another echo member. I was interested that this story seemed to
 > +be so close to the Hudson Valley UFO stories in some ways.  Soon after,
 > Jim

 > Jim,

 > Any idea what Maury thought similar between the Gulf 'Stream' :-) and
 > Hudson Valley cases?

Looking back, I can't remember. I think it was just the multiple sightings
aspect.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Kansas disappearances
Date: 20 Sep 91 19:46:00 GMT


 > From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

 > Can anyone fill me in on the disappearance of two women and two daughters
 > of one of them in Russel County, Kansas?  The only thing I've heard so far
 > (just minutes ago on NBC) is that they were 'studying' UFOs and rumors are
 > rampant that the aliens have snatched them.  The authorities aren't happy
 > about all the fuss and say that they've recently gotten some solid leads
 > but it's a bizarre case.  My gut feeling is that when the truth is known
 > it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the GB-6, but I'd be a lot more
 > comfortable with better information.

Russell, Kansas? Isn't that where our old friend, Scott Corder, hails from? I
wouldn't be a bit surprised if he is involved....

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: 1956 UFO Documentary
Date: 24 Sep 91 21:28:00 GMT


 > Next Friday, September 27, 1991 on TNT at 3:45 A.M. E.S.T. there
 > is a documentary called 'UFO.'  It was made in 1956.

OOOOOOOO, that's a CLASSIC! It was a sort of 50's docudrama, narrated by a guy
that sounded like George Fenniman, with a newsreel music bed, and military
recreations...a real period piece!

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: wrs.com!davidj
Subject: UFO Events Calendar
Date: 26 Sep 91 03:33:18 GMT

From: [e-mail] (David Jones)


From: [e-mail]
Subject: UFO Events Calendar
Date: Wed Sep 25 19:16:15 PDT 1991

 *************************************************************************
 * The following are some upcoming events that will focus on UFOs.  I    *
 * share this with you in the hopes that the more people that know the   *
 * truth, that the truth will be known by more people.  I am in no       *
 * way involved with any of these events and share this for information  *
 * purposes only.  If you know of other UFO-type events, I welcome email *
 * in this regards.         Enjoy.                                       *
 *************************************************************************

Sept. 28 UFORUM - West L. A. Every last Saturday of the month
 Speakers on all aspects of UFOs
 Felicia Mahood Center, 11338 Santa Monica Blvd.
 West Los Angeles, CA
 info: A.R.C. 11012 Ventura Blvd., #134, Studio City, CA 91604
 213 874-8185

Sept 29 NH MUFON UFO Conference
 Yokens Convention Center, Portsmouth, New Hampshire

Oct. 3-6 International UFO Congress
 European UFO Network, Belgium

Oct. 12-13 The UFO Experience
 Holiday Inn, North Haven, Conn.

Oct 12-13 Fourth Symposium of Ufology and Exobiology
 Sao Palo, Brazil

Oct 19  Show-Me UFO Conference III
 Holiday Inn Airport-West
 Bridgeton, Missouri  (near St. Louis Airport)

Oct 26 UFORUM - West L. A. Every last Saturday of the month
 Speakers on all aspects of UFOs
 Felicia Mahood Center, 11338 Santa Monica Blvd.
 West Los Angeles, CA
 info: A.R.C. 11012 Ventura Blvd., #134, Studio City, CA 91604
 213 874-8185

Nov 15 - 18 Fri - Mon Whole Life Expo
        Los Angeles Airport Hilton Convention Center
        5711 W. Century Blvd.   213 369-7090 POB 1317 Venice, CA 90291
          Marina Popovich, Brad Steiger among others will be speaking.

Nov sometime CUFOS
 Santa Barbara Center for Humanistic Studies
 Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1611

Dec 8 - 13 Vegas International UFO Congress (This follows closely on the heels
  of the Tucson Conference, both put on by Wendelle Stevens)
 UFO's and Official Authorities
 Riviera Hotel, Las Vegas, NV
 Office: 4266 Broadway, Oakland CA 510 428-0202 FAX [phone]
 Tickets $290.00 (if obtained in advance)
  List of speakers:
   J.J Benitez, Spain, Spanish Government files
   Joel Mesnard, France, UFO Abductions
   Mario Luis Bracamonte, Argentina, Heads C.O.R. Group
   Zetha Rodriguez, Mexico, Prof. H. Abduction
   Prof. Darush Bagheri, Iran, UFOs in East Mythology
   Prof. Sun Shi-Li, Rep. of China, China UFO Update
   Bob Ewing, Rep. of S. Africa, Air Traffic and UFOs
   Capt. Rui Avila Castel, Portugal, UFOs and Airliners
   Capt. Guy Kirkwood, USA, UFO Intercepts
   Bob Oeschler, USA, NASA and UFOs
   Sgt. Clifford Stone, U.S. Army, Contactee Treatment
   Dr. Richard Haines, UAS, Pilot Reports on UFOs
   Jorge Martin, Puerto Rico, UFO Aircraft Capture
   Alejandro Agostinelli, Argentina, UFO Photographs
   Marco Petit de Castro, Brazil, UFO Photographs
   Guido Moosbrugger, Austria, Inside the Meier Case
   Michael Hessmann, Germany, Latest German UFOs
   Vladimir Terziski, Bulgaria, UFO Technology
   Lembit Rannu, Estonia, UFO Abductions
   Ulimas Lipende, Finland, UFO Abductions
   Hakkan Blomqvist, Sweden, THe Helge Case
   Tales Schonia, Georgia USSR, Tbilisi Landings
   Col. R. O. Dean, USA, SHAPE UFO Commission

Sept 1992 (tentative)  Belgian International UFO Conference
 (Put on by Wendelle Stevens.  This will be his 3rd)

1993 sometime (probably) New York International UFO Conference
 (Put on by Wendelle Stevens.  This will be his 4th)

cc`ed to UNIX netnews:alt.alien.visitors
-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Ogden objects
Date: 26 Sep 91 06:07:00 GMT


Hi, Peggy

I've been following your "Ogden objects" story with interest, and
quite honestly, at least a modicum of skepticism.

I think it would be great if you could post a brief synopsis of
this event, detailing the objects discovery and events that have
unfolded up to this point.

Apparently, you now have photographs in your possesion which Jim
Speiser is going to digitize and make available to the network. Who
took these pix, and who actually disovered the objects? What is the
apparent connection with Sitchin's material? I understand that the
"writing" is supposed to be similar to Arabic characters according
to Curtis.

You would think that many news services would be interested in
picking up a story such as this, but to my knowledge only_Omni
Magazine_ has shown an interest in the scoop.

From what I've seen so far, it seems to be the same old story of
too many "un-named" sources. Anecdotal evidence such as this *must*
be verifiable if we are to be taken seriously.

Best of luck,

-= Sheldon =-
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: ogden object
Date: 26 Sep 91 03:54:00 GMT

Hi Jim,

Wouldn't dream of asking you for 29 cents for sending you a drawing of
the Ogden Object.  It's a sketch I made from a photograph, not the
actual photograph.  But I guess I did a good enough job because several
people have identified it as a "tunnel borer."  It is supposedly some
40 feet high.  Post your address & I'll snail it to ya.

<:-)   Linda

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Tesla & Hungarian
Date: 26 Sep 91 04:23:00 GMT

Hi Clark,

The man who was channeling Tesla (alledgedly) was not speaking in
Hungarian, just in a really thick Hungarian-type accent.  (I was at the
BeckleyCon earlier in this month and attended that particular session.)

TTYL,

Linda

--
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 481

                          Monday, September 30th 1991

Today's Topics:

                              Kansas Disappearances
                           Re: Calendar of UFO Events
                              Kansas Disappearances
                     Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                           Dave and Doug - The Latest
                                  Re: Implants
                               A local sighting...
                                 Discovery hoax
                               Re: Upcoming Shows
                                 Re: BeckleyCon
                            Re: Kansas disappearances
                                  Frederik Bell
                                    Implants
                                  Crop Circles
                                   Bentwaters
                                     (none)
                      Seminar with George and Desiree Green
                   should've put it in the PREDICTIONS echo...
                                Re: ogden object
                                    Implants
                               Re: Upcoming Shows
                                Re: Frederik Bell
                                 Re: Bentwaters
                                 Re: BeckleyCon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Kansas Disappearances
Date: 26 Sep 91 22:26:00 GMT

* In a message originally to Ncar!amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms, Jim Speiser said
>That's it, you've confirmed it. This "predictions" file came
>from Scott Corder. I remember that he made a point of
>mentioning Bob Dole's hometown because it was the same as his
>own.
>
>Scott Corder is a gent who started making all sorts of
>neo-Biblical prophecies a couple of years back, none of which
>came true. I have the complete file on him somewhere.....
>

I have it.  If you need it, let me know.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: usl.edu!pgf9240
Subject: Re: Calendar of UFO Events
Date: 27 Sep 91 00:51:32 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Fraering Philip G)


Oh, gosh darn! You shouldn't lead people on like that!

I thought it was a schedule of planned landings, abductions,
and unauthorized tower flybys :-)


:-)


Phil Fraering
[e-mail]
-or-
[e-mail]
Fidonet address: If anyone knows how, tell me...




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Sudduth)
Subject: Kansas Disappearances
Date: 27 Sep 91 04:48:00 GMT

* In a message originally to Ncar!amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms, Jim Speiser said
> > From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
>
> > Can anyone fill me in on the disappearance of two women and two
> > daughters
> > of one of them in Russel County, Kansas?  The only thing I've heard so
> > far
> > (just minutes ago on NBC) is that they were 'studying' UFOs and rumors
> > are
> > rampant that the aliens have snatched them.  The authorities aren't
> > happy
> > about all the fuss and say that they've recently gotten some solid leads
> > but it's a bizarre case.  My gut feeling is that when the truth is known
> > it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the GB-6, but I'd be a lot more
> > comfortable with better information.
>
>Russell, Kansas? Isn't that where our old friend, Scott Corder,
>hails from? I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he is involved....
>
>Jim
>
>---
> * Origin: You're Listening to the EXCELLENCE IN UFOLOGY
>Network (1:114/37)



Apparently, 4 people were originally missing.  But two of them have
been contacted by phone.  I think I saw this report on "Inside
Edition"???
>371/3
--
Don Sudduth - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Sudduth)
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 27 Sep 91 05:00:00 GMT

>Having just finished watching the "Unsolved Mysteries" segment about
>the Bentwater case, I have a couple of comments and a couple of questions.
>
>I though that the presentation of the case was extremely poorly done.
>I'm not saying that the case isn't valid; I'm saying that the show
>presented it badly.  They took 20 minutes to show what could have
>been shown in 5 minutes.  I had a feeling that maybe they had bought
>new special effects' machines for this season, so they had to use
>them.  I can't stand "dramatic re-enactments" anyway, and this was a
>good example of why.  I thought that the soldiers and Col. Halt were
>good in their interviews.  Why "re-enact" what they can tell you?  I
>think that their testimony was much more dramatic than the staged
>stuff.  Anyway, the poor quality of the show raised these questions for me:
>
>The Colonel mentioned that he brought a photographer out with him.
>What happned to him?  Did he take any pictures?  Did they come out?



Also, one of the most interesting facts about this case was the time
lag of one of the observer's shadow on the UFO from the background
lights.  He noticed that his shadow had about a half second delay
lagging behind his movements (suggesting some sort of time
displacement?????)
>
--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: aixssc.ibm.co.uk!rob
Subject: Dave and Doug - The Latest
Date: 27 Sep 91 05:32:12 GMT

From: Robert Trevelyan <[e-mail]>

    The final circle of the season (so far as we know) appeared on Sept 12
in a crop of linseed near the church at Old Alresford, Hampshire. It was a
plain circle of 38 ft diameter, swirled clockwise.
The circle, which I'm assured is genuine, in one of the very last uncut
fields in Southern England.

     Meanwhile more murky facts are emerging slowly from the 'Dave and Doug
Hoax' saga.
The story was supplied to Today by 'MBF Services' although Today stated
that it had paid no money. When asked how MBF could be contacted Today either
dodged the question or gave conflicting replies : (1) 'There is no telephone
number for MBF' (a funny sort of news agency !) (2) They didn't know the
address of MBF (3) the story had been marked 'Copyright MBF Services' to
prevent others publishing copyright material (4) we could reprint whatever we
liked without charge (5) MBF had an address in Shepton Mallet (6) a contact
number for MBF was 0962 - 713843 on the Twyford (Winchester) exchange.
(I think this last one slipped out by mistake.)

    The Shepton Mallet address is an accommodation address with a firm of
chartered accountants who have MBF as a client. Describing it as a 'Scientific
Research and Development Company', they would tell us no more details about
their client. The Twyford number had been discontinued by last week, and
enquiries to British Telecom revealed equal confusion. It was descibed first
as a private residential number, and then as a 'special exchange number'.

    Solicitors searches have now revealed that the director of MBF is a certain
Andrew Winsloe Clifford of Maiden Beech Farm, West Crewkerne, Somerset. This,
of course, solves what MBF stands for, but we still need to find out about Mr
Clifford. He and his wife are sole shareholders and the company was first
registered in April 1991. No accounts have been returned so far.

    On Friday Doug and Dave were confronted on Granada's 'Upfront' TV program.
They were asked on the program the following questions:
(1) Who are the MBF news agency and who are the directors ?
(2) Why does MBF have no telephone number ?
(3) Have you at any time, or now, worked for the Government Intelligence
or Security services?
All three questions were denied, evaded or laughed off. The TV show finished
in uproar.

The plot thickens.

+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                          DISCLAIMER:                              |
| The views expressed in this document are not a corporate view     |
| nor reflect the views of my employer by any means but are my      |
| own personal views on this subject .                              |
|                                                                   |
| Robert Trevelyan   UKnet: [e-mail] |
| AIX Communications    VNET: TREVELR at BASVM2     |
|      Voice: [phone]     |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: Implants
Date: 25 Sep 91 06:47:00 GMT

In a message to Keith Basterfield <09-23-91 23:13> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:
SW> could come up with was from the early 1980's. However, quite a few
SW> science-fiction films were made in the mid to late 50's which
SW> involved alien cerebral 'implants' used to control the human mind.
SW> One of these I remember was the classic _Invaders From Mars_. So
SW> the implant stories (even though fictional in this case)

Yes! I remember that movie. Consider the elements:

1.) They made an underground base
2.) The workers were drones
3.) The central figure had a large head and very spindly
    arms and legs.
4.) They recruited earthlings with implants in the brain.
5.) The implants had an explosive charge in them.
6.) The movie was the dream of a boy. He woke up at the
    end of the movie, and then the saucer landed just like
    in his dream.


--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: A local sighting...
Date: 26 Sep 91 14:53:25 GMT

The following is from my local newspaper....

Jim Graham
---------------------------------------------------------------

From the Herald Times, Wednesday, September 25, 1991

"Monroe UFO Sighting Investigated"
H-T Report (no author given)

   A possible unidentified flying object viewed Monday night caught the
attention of both the Monroe County Sheriff's Department and a local UFO
investigator.

   Around 9:10 p.m. in the 8000 block of Victor Pike a family reported seeing
a bright blue light in the northeast part of the sky, said Will Ott a field
investigator for the Mutual UFO Network, an international organization which
investigates possible UFO sightings.

   The light changed to red, then to white, Ott said.

   Around this time deputy Randy Williamson arrived from the Monroe County
Sheriff's Department.  Williamson reported seeing several smaller lights
detach themselves from the main light and fly to the west, Ott said.  The
smaller lights eventually vanished.

   Ott said he arrived about 10 p.m. and observed the main light for about an
hour.  He said he also saw a "pale yellow light moving back and forth along a
tree line."

   In addition a similar sighting was reported in Oakland City, about 90
miles southwest of Bloomington, Monday night, Ott said.

   Among UFO investigators, such phenomena are called "nocturnal lights,"
said Ott, who is looking into the incident.

----------------------- End of article ------------------------

I have just two comments about this.

I find it interesting that:

a.) A well known deputy appears to have been the one making the report
    (although this isn't unusual).

b.) A MUFON field investigator claims to have seen the object.  I'm not
    familiar enough with MUFON to know if their investigators have
    made similar claims.

Anyway, I thought I'd pass this along to show that Bloomington, Indiana
isn't totally dead in terms of the unusual :-).

Regards,
Jim Graham,
The Portal Dolmen BBS [phone]

)
--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Discovery hoax
Date: 25 Sep 91 04:42:01 GMT


 > I heard an explanation a few months later, from someone on Compuserve I
 > think.  Apparently the shuttle downlink is rebroadcast from Goddard for the
 > amateur radio community, and someone in the area simply transmitted on the
 > same frequency.

  Shuttle audio is retransmitted (with delay) from Goddard on a ham radio band,
so of course anyone who had a transmitter tuned to that frequency could jump
in. And of course lots of hams can transmit on that freq.

                                           jbh

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: Upcoming Shows
Date: 24 Sep 91 03:24:27 GMT


 JS> Being against Phil Klass does not automatically equate with support of
 JS> the UFO community. I think he thought they were ALL a bunch of dweebs.
 JS> Jim

Jim,

Why? ..... I didn't get that impression.

Regards,
Kay

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: BeckleyCon
Date: 24 Sep 91 03:26:58 GMT


 LB> Next year you can come to the BeckleyCon and stay with me.  We'll
 LB> attend the whole thing and have a ball!!

How Hospitable! I may just take you up on it!

--
Kay Mclaughlin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: Kansas disappearances
Date: 24 Sep 91 05:57:50 GMT


 n> From: vanth!jms
 n> From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
 n>
 n> Can anyone fill me in on the disappearance of two women and two
 n> daughters of one of them in Russel County, Kansas?  The only thing I've
 n> heard so far (just minutes ago on NBC) is that they were 'studying'
 n> UFOs and rumors are rampant that the aliens have snatched them.  The
 n> authorities aren't happy about all the fuss and say that they've
 n> recently gotten some solid leads but it's a bizarre case.  My gut
 n> feeling is that when the truth is known it'll probably be a Messianic
 n> cult like the GB-6, but I'd be a lot more comfortable with better
 n> information.
 n> --

Jim,

There was a story on this tonite on Inside Edition.

According to the report produced by Phillip Reeder:

They were members of a UFO cult headed by Donna Butz and Scott Corder.

They believe that Bob Dole(a Russel native) will be our last president
and that the white house will be moved to Russel after armegedden.

Shortly after the death of Eric Fowlers aunt and group member and group
member Trudi Fermi.

Early in September people started dissapearing without a trace, first
school teacher Marsha Brach (Brock?) and her two daughters (Stephanie
and Sonje) then Donna Butz the groups leader. Scott Corder also disappeared.

They talked with the roommate of Stephanie and Sonja Brock. Her roommate
said that the only things missing from the apartment were her toothbrush,
contact case, and her bible.

The report ended with the anchor saying that Scott Corder had called
them, and that he was OK he would not tell them where he was, but said
he did not know where the four women were. They forwarded that
information to the Police saying "Best to let them handle it".


--
Kay Mclaughlin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Subject: Frederik Bell
Date: 16 Sep 91 18:44:02 GMT

Hello Jim!
hello All!

Did any body know about Dr. Frederik Bell?

cheers
   Andre

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Implants
Date: 27 Sep 91 05:24:00 GMT

Sheldon, thanks for your comments on my implants posting. Yes, the
1953 (I think) Invaders From Mars certainly shows a classic abduction.
A woman is taken aboard a flying saucer, laid on a table, and a
tubular device comes down from above, and is going to implant a
control device in the woman's neck, when she is rescued.

Speaking of published documents. Dave Webb sent me an advance copy of
a paper titled: "Physical Analysis of Purported Alien Artifacts" by
David E Pritchard, Department of Physics/Research Laboratory of
Electronics, Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The paper is
scheduled to be published in the proceedings of the TREAT 11
conference.

Pritchard's paper's abstract reads:-
"Although the hypothesis that extraterrestrial intelligence exists is
under active investigation in the scientific community, the hypothesis
that it may have a physical presence here on earth is not. Physical
evidence provides the best way to bring the latter hypothesis into
active scientific consideration. I discuss ways in which
extraterrestrial origin of a physical artifact may be inferred from
its performance, material composition, or sturcture. Performance can
provide the strongest evidence for a single artifcat, but the repeated
observation of similar artifacts in similar circumstances can also be
persuasive."

Pritchard is also the individual who looked at the Price penal implant
case.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Crop Circles
Date: 27 Sep 91 05:28:00 GMT

To: Steve Gamble

Any chance of a quick update on the status of the claims by the two
artists re hoaxed crop circles. The media "down under" carried items
for a few days and then the story just simply died. Of particular
interest is their claim to have copied the idea from Australians who
hoaxed "saucer nests" here some years ago. Thanks if you are able.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Bentwaters
Date: 28 Sep 91 00:12:00 GMT

Hi Jim, for those of us who weren't able to see the Unsolved Mysteries
coverage of Bentwaters, would you be able to give a potted summary of
John Burroughs testimony? I've accumulated a mass of data on the
Bentwaters case over the years in trying to keep abreast of it, so
some info on Burrough's current statements would allow us to ask
intelligent questions of him.

Thanks if you or anyone else on the network can fill the "down under"
researchers in.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 28 Sep 91 01:31:29 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


Subject:  Seminar with George and Desiree Green

George and Desiree Green, the publishers of the Phoenix Journals,
are conducting seminars in October.

-> Oct 12 O'Hare Plaza Ho-Jo's, Chicago, Illinois.  (SI11)
   Call for more information:  Lucy Covington [phone]
   the Greens, Bo Gritz and someone named Fletcher will speak.

-> Oct 15 6:30-10:30 Metropolitan Multi Service Center, Houston Texas. (STX1)
   Call for more information:  Jeff and Shannon Anderson [phone]

I believe the cost will be around $20, and in the past that has
included one of their books.  That is all the information I have.

Greg ([e-mail])





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vanth!jms
Subject: should've put it in the PREDICTIONS echo...
Date: 28 Sep 91 07:12:26 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

To: Jim Speiser

We were right! The four people who 'disappeared' from Russell *are*
religious and they're alive and well and on their way to Israel with Scott
Corder.  The FBI found them at an airport in D.C.  (Next time, they should
try telling people where they're going, eh?)

--
  *  From the disk of: |  [e-mail]   | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: ogden object
Date: 27 Sep 91 08:23:53 GMT


In a message sent 20:54: 25 Sep 91, Linda Bird wrote to Jim Graham:
 LB> people have identified it as a "tunnel borer."  It is
 LB> supposedly some

 A "tunnel borer"?  You mean those huge grinders that dig through mountains?

 LB> 40 feet high.  Post your address & I'll snail it to
 LB> ya.

Thank you, Linda.

Here 'tis:

Jim Graham
4055 East Farr Rd.
Bloomington, Indiana  47408

)
--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Implants
Date: 28 Sep 91 06:59:00 GMT



G'day, Keith

The paper you mentioned by David Pritchard does indeed sound
interesting and worthwhile reading. I'll have to see if I can
obtain a copy. I was not aware that Pritchard was an examiner in
the Richard Price case. In the reports I have read thus far on this
incident, no individuals or institutions were named. BTW, what was
David's opinion on the penile implant? Coincidentally, I am in
contact with someone here in Chicago who was one of Price's school
mates back in Troy, New York, where the implantation was supposed
to have transpired.

In another message to all, you asked about David Jacobs new book.
It is entitled _Secret Life: The Structure and Meaning of UFO
Abductions_, and is scheduled to be released in March of '92 by
Simon and Schuster. It will detail Jacobs' analyses of the more
than 300 hypnotic regression sessions he has conducted with
abductees over the past several years. Jacobs also is the recipient
of a $200,000 grant to conduct a poll to discern the magnitude of
the abduction phenomenon and to compile a compendium of abduction
accounts.

David should be back on the ParaNet abduction echo shortly,
according to Mike Corbin, or you can write him direct at:

607 East Gravers Lane
Wyndmoor, PA 19118
U.S.A.

Take care,

Sheldon -- Chicago, IL
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Upcoming Shows
Date: 27 Sep 91 21:00:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <09-23-91 20:24> Kay Mclaughlin wrote:

KM>  Why? ..... I didn't get that impression.
KM>
KM>  Regards,
KM>  Kay

Well, I'd have to run it again, but I thought he made some pretty dry
remarks to both sides. Especially when Stan Friedman brought up the issue of
his father's UFO sighting. He seemed especially testy at that point.

Jim

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Frederik Bell
Date: 27 Sep 91 21:01:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <09-16-91 11:44> Andre Eichner wrote:

AE>  Hello Jim!
AE>  hello All!
AE>
AE>  Did any body know about Dr. Frederik Bell?

I know a little about him, he's into all kinds of alternate energy theories,
none of which seem to have panned out. Why?

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Bentwaters
Date: 27 Sep 91 21:02:00 GMT

Keith:

Pretty soon I should be able to upload a summary of Burroughs' signed
statement. I'll let you and the rest of the network know when that's
possible.

Jim

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: BeckleyCon
Date: 28 Sep 91 04:43:00 GMT

Hi Kay,

It would be my pleasure to have you stay with me and go  to the
BeckleyCon.  As Jim Speiser says, "I wouldn't miss one for the world!"

Your origin line doesnn't give any clues as to your location:  where do
you hail from?

Linda

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]

 For administrative requests (subscriptions, back issues) send to:

UUCP            {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara-request
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 To obtain back issues by anonymous ftp, connect to:

DOMAIN          ftp.uiowa.edu (directory /archives/paranet)

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 482

                           Tuesday, October 1st 1991

Today's Topics:

                            Re: Kansas Disappearances
                                Re: Frederik Bell
                                      Mail
                         Re: Dave and Doug - The Latest
                              Re: Tesla & Hungarian
                               UFO Events Calendar
                       Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                              Kansas disappearances
                                    Implants
                                Re: ogden object
                         Donna Butts of Russell, Kansas
                                  Frederik Bell
                         Re: Dave and Doug - The Latest
                                  Ogden objects
                              Ogden Objects reply#2
                                      MICAP
                  Uncritical Thinking About The Lazar Material

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Kansas Disappearances
Date: 28 Sep 91 05:12:00 GMT

Hi Mike,

Can you post the file on Mr. Corder and/or the Kansas missing persons?
Thanks!

Linda


--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Frederik Bell
Date: 28 Sep 91 05:23:00 GMT

Hi Andre,

Isn't this Fred Bell the one who claims to have worked with Werner von
Braun?  He also claims to be in contact (and it sounds like romantic
contact, to me!) with Semjase of Meier fame.

I'm skeptical....

Linda


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Mail
Date: 28 Sep 91 05:25:00 GMT

Hi Keith,
  I airmailed a whole envelope of goodies to you this afternoon and I'm
sure you will have it all in a few days.

Regards!

Linda

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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Dave and Doug - The Latest
Date: 28 Sep 91 05:39:00 GMT

Hi Robert,

The newest issue of TIME magazine (Sept. 23) has a page-long story on
David Chorley and Douglas Bower, but it's great to hear from you
because you are right there.

Anyway, I'll copy this little bit from the article and see if you have
any more to add:

   "Delgado's exultation (at seeing the circle) was soon cut short.
Graham Brough, a reporter from the London tabloid TODAY who had alerted
Delgado to the latest apparition, introduced him to two landscape
painters,...(our boys).  They had created the Sevenoaks circle while
Brough looked on."  It went on to say that they had been doing this for
the past 13 years, amking as many as 25 to 30 new circles each growing
season.

Sure sound like some attempt at disinformation to me!

Robert, if you want a copy of this story, just post an address, and
I'll air snailmail it to you.

Best regards,

Linda Bird

--
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Tesla & Hungarian
Date: 27 Sep 91 11:08:00 GMT

LB>The man who was channeling Tesla (alledgedly) was not
LB>speaking in Hungarian, just in a really thick
LB>Hungarian-type accent.  (I was at the BeckleyCon earlier in
LB>this month and attended that particular session.)

Hi Linda.  Okay, I get the picture.  "Leesen to dem -- dey are de childrrren
of de night!  Vhat musik dey maaake..."

I vas valking along de Danube vhith my frriend, Szigety, vhen -- a vision
appeared before us!!!  A flash of light, and den ... a man named Otis was
holding a box, a paper box of some kind.  It has writing, in English ... how
strange!  "Hackensack Alternator Rebuilding Company".  "Core charge extra".

And inside de box -- a miracle!  A small, polyphase alternating generator!
Then, this godlike Otis holds out de box, offering it to me like some
Prometheus out of time!  He says ...

"Wanna buy a '67 Polara?"

--
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: UFO Events Calendar
Date: 28 Sep 91 17:32:00 GMT


 >  *********************************
 > ****************************************
 >  * The following are some upcoming events that will focus on UFOs.  I
 >  * share this with you in the hopes that the more people that know the
 >  * truth, that the truth will be known by more people.  I am in no
 >  * way involved with any of these events and share this for information
 >  * purposes only.  If you know of other UFO-type events, I welcome email
 >  * in this regards.         Enjoy.
 >  *********************************

Thank you, David. A regular posting like this is very needed here.
 > Nov sometime CUFOS
 >         Santa Barbara Center for Humanistic Studies
 >         Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1611
They're doing another one? Great! The first one was excellent!
 >           Col. R. O. Dean, USA, SHAPE UFO Commission
Is this how Command Sergeant Major Robert O. Dean was listed? Interesting....
Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 28 Sep 91 17:35:00 GMT


 > Also, one of the most interesting facts about this case was the time lag
 > of one of the observer's shadow on the UFO from the background lights.
 > He noticed that his shadow had about a half second delay lagging behind
 > his movements (suggesting some sort of time displacement?????)

What an extremely specific and painstaking observation to make when one is in
the presence of a UFO....where'dya hear this one?

Jim

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Kansas disappearances
Date: 28 Sep 91 17:38:00 GMT


 > Jim,
 > There was a story on this tonite on Inside Edition.
 > According to the report produced by Phillip Reeder:
 > They were members of a UFO cult headed by Donna Butz and Scott Corder.
 > They believe that Bob Dole(a Russel native) will be our last president
 > and that the white house will be moved to Russel after armegedden.
 > Shortly after the death of Eric Fowlers aunt and group member and group
 > member Trudi Fermi.
 > Early in September people started dissapearing without a trace, first
 > school teacher Marsha Brach (Brock?) and her two daughters (Stephanie
 > and Sonje) then Donna Butz the groups leader. Scott Corder also
 > disappeared.
 > They talked with the roommate of Stephanie and Sonja Brock. Her roommate
 > said that the only things missing from the apartment were her toothbrush,
 > contact case, and her bible.
 > The report ended with the anchor saying that Scott Corder had called
 > them, and that he was OK he would not tell them where he was, but said
 > he did not know where the four women were. They forwarded that
 > information to the Police saying "Best to let them handle it".
 >  * Origin: ABySS BBS (1:109/134.0)

Thanks for that info, Kay.

--
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Implants
Date: 28 Sep 91 17:45:00 GMT


 > In another message to all, you asked about David Jacobs new book.
 > It is entitled _Secret Life: The Structure and Meaning of UFO
 > Abductions_, and is scheduled to be released in March of '92 by
 > Simon and Schuster. It will detail Jacobs' analyses of the more
 > than 300 hypnotic regression sessions he has conducted with
 > abductees over the past several years. Jacobs also is the recipient
 > of a $200,000 grant to conduct a poll to discern the magnitude of
 > the abduction phenomenon and to compile a compendium of abduction
 > accounts.

$200,000???????????? HEY DAVE! CAN I HELP????????!!!!!


Jim

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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: ogden object
Date: 29 Sep 91 03:31:00 GMT

Hi Jim,

Will certainly snail the sketches out to you on Monday.  Remember, this
is a sketch I did of a photo.  But some engineers have been able to
identify it as a "tunnel borer."

Am interested in your opinion.  And maybe while I'm at it, I'll dust off
my encyclopedias and see what I can find....

Best,

Linda

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Donna Butts of Russell, Kansas
Date: 29 Sep 91 04:01:00 GMT

Here's some information on Donna Butts, who is considered a
"contactee."

(No date given for this event.)  She was  driving with her
mother-in-law and young sons toward Kansas City to see Donna's husband
in a hsopital.  It was after midnight when she left home and is now the
wee hours of the morning on I-170.

Shw was following a larlge truck and as she rounded a curve in the
highway she saw a huge UFO sitting beside the road.  The truck driver
has already seen it.  The moment Donna's mother-in-law saw the UFO, she
panicked and stepped on the gas.  Donna looked out the back and saw a
green light, a beam that hits the highway just behind the car.  The
mother-in-law passes the truck and as she does, the green light follows
to hit the truck.  The truck disappears!  There is no trace of the
truck or any sign that it was ever there.

The women and children speed on, stunned by the sight.  Soon they
[assed a group of military vehicles parked beside the highway.  When
she tells her husband, he tells he to keep quiet.  "Probably some kind
of military thing," he says.

Later in a newspaper, Donna saw 2 short articles.  One reports that
several people reported seeing a UFO about the same time she did.  The
other tells about a missing truck being located in the middle of a
large field, but the driver has not been found.

This article goes on:  Donna started being contacted by being from
another existence (it says).  There are  boardings on a UFO.  Lessons
from the contacts, and projected events for the future.  There are
repeated visits from visitors in human form--one materializes right in
from on Donna's daughter.  The small girl calls him a "starman" because
he seems to be made up of tiny start lights.  Many messages have
references to the Bible.

That's about it.  (By the way, I posted this for information.  Please
do not consider me a Donna Butts advocate.)

Linda Bird


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Frederik Bell
Date: 29 Sep 91 09:06:00 GMT


 > Hello Jim!
 > hello All!
 >

Howdy, Andre!  Wie geht's Ihnen?  Hoffentlich wird der Berliner
Luft ein bisschen reiner?

 > Did any body know about Dr. Frederik Bell?
 >

Habe nichts neues von ihn gehoert.  Wer ist er denn?

Sofort schicke ich ein neues WRONG#.ZIP als File-Attach.  Lots of new stuff.

Best,
  Clark


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Dave and Doug - The Latest
Date: 29 Sep 91 09:44:00 GMT

nc>'There is no telephone
nc>number for MBF' (a funny sort of news agency !) (2) They didn't know the
nc>address of MBF (3) the story had been marked 'Copyright MBF Services' to
nc>prevent others publishing copyright material (4) we could reprint whatever we
nc>liked without charge (5) MBF had an address in Shepton Mallet (6) a contact
nc>number for MBF was 0962 - 713843 on the Twyford (Winchester) exchange.

A funny sort of news agency indeed!  Personally, I must wonder about the
Today program -- do they routinely give out permissions to reprint other
people's copyright material?  Or do they do it only with material they
broadcast from news agencies without telephone numbers???

nc>    The Shepton Mallet address is an accommodation address with a firm of
nc>chartered accountants who have MBF as a client. Describing it as a
nc>'Scientific Research and Development Company', they would tell us no
nc>more details about their client. The Twyford number had been discontinued by
nc>last week, and enquiries to British Telecom revealed equal confusion. It
nc>was descibed first as a private residential number, and then as a 'special
nc>exchange number'.

A very special exchange, I'll bet.

nc>  Solicitors searches have now revealed that the director of MBF is a certain
nc>Andrew Winsloe Clifford of Maiden Beech Farm, West Crewkerne, Somerset. This,
nc>of course, solves what MBF stands for, but we still need to find out about Mr
nc>Clifford. He and his wife are sole shareholders and the company was first
nc>registered in April 1991. No accounts have been returned so far.

Nor will they be, I'll bet.  Any wagers that MBF goes bankrupt before next
April??  Or, alternatively, that the Chartered Accountants go bankrupt
before next April??  Or both???

MOD will need to set up a more plausible entity to debunk the circles by
next planting time. Unless they decide to keep their heads down for a year
until this blows over.

Still, Maiden Beech Farm of West Crewkerne sounds lovely, doesn't it?  Too
bad Mr. Clifford & his wife have to move away now.  Perhaps they'll go
back to Wiltshire.  Somewhere close to RAF Rudloe Manor.  It's very pretty,
too.

Robert, thank you for your continued excellent reporting of this thickening
plot!  I hope you can continue to chase down the details of this
public-relations debacle in the coming months -- follow-up on MBF, its
principals, the accounting firm, and the hoax hoaxers could lead us to some
very interesting revalations.

Personally, I wish that the UFO groups of the USAF, RAF, RCAF, RAAF, and the
(former) Soviet Air Defense Command could all sit down with the Belgian Air
Defense Command and get knee-walking drunk together.  Wouldn't it be
wonderful if they just commiserated for 12 hours and then decided to tell
the truth???

In vino veritas,
  Clark

--
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From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Ogden objects
Date: 29 Sep 91 16:45:00 GMT

Hello Sheldon,
        The points in your message about those Ogden Objects are
well taken.  I will try to address each.
        First, I do NOT yet have those photos.  Guy Kirkwood had
said he would send me photocopies of the original color photos he
has (Linda Bird has seen Guy's photos, so I'm assuming they do
exist) but he has not yet sent them to me.  I asked for the
photocopies of the photos first before endorsing the expenditure of
making photographic copies of them.  (Why?  You'll see in a sec when
I explain about OMNI.)
        Right now I know of only one other person who says she has
photos of the same object.  Jim Speiser knows her too -- Cheyenne --
and perhaps it is her photos he's planning to digitize, since I have
not yet received the photos myself./
        This person also told me that she would send me a copy and
never did, but I think it's more a matter of her having so many
things going on at this time that she's too busy to get to it
rather than a deliberate evasion.  If two different people own
copies of the photos and a third person has seen those copies, then
there is some small evidence those photos actually exist, though
it's not hard evidence or absolute proof (when I see them myself,
then I will be able to say they do exist.)  What I have seen is a
drawing Linda Bird made from the photo Guy Kirkwood showed her at
the Beckleycon (sp?) a couple of weekends back.
        If the photos exist and actually depict the objects
described and drawn, that lends some evidentiary weight to the
story, but the fact that the original source is so difficult to
reach makes me wonder too.  I have not yet spoken to this mysterious
person, though I have talked to a person who claims to know this
mystery man and to have spoken directly with him.  Thetory is that
the guy is afraid he'd lose his job if he's connected to the tale,
so I've offered complete anonymity if he'll let me speak to him
directly, but so far no result.
        Re the OMNI question.  You said you'd heard they're on the
story.  So has everyone else -- except OMNI's editors.  I write for
Omni and have been assigned to do this story for them and they
tell me they don't know who the supposed Omni writers who "everyone
says" have been on this story since it began might be.  Could be
people working on spec, could be failure to communicate between
editors, but so far they've remained as elusive as the original
source who worked at the site of the objects' discovery.  IF you
hear of a name connected to Omni on this story, I'd appreciate if
you'd pass it along to me.  I'd like to talk to whoever this/these
person/people is/are.  Perhaps we could stop tripping on each
others' work -- if the others do exist.  The story is that these
Omni writers have been harrassing the original source of this story
terribly to the point where he is wary of talking to anyone.  Bad
news if true.  But suppose they're not really from the magazine
after all?  Then who are they?  And why are they so ardently
pursuing this?  All good reasons to check them out, so if you DO
learn something about them, please let me know.
        Because Omni did assign this story to me (I'm a freelancer
who has worked for the magazine for many years now and you can check
with editors there or look at back issues to see my byline to verify
my claim to working for them), I owe them first priority on the
story and pictures.  I can speak of general info in the context of
trying to learn more, but I can't ethically give away what they've
hired me to get for them.  -- Out of message space, see next one.

--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Ogden Objects reply#2
Date: 29 Sep 91 17:01:00 GMT

Part 2
        If you've been following the posts here, you've probably
seen my original messages asking for info on the story.  Jerry
Decker at KeelyNet apparently was the first person to post something
about it but he doesn't have a lot more info than what you've heard.
        1) Location:  still undefined.  One says 60 miles north of
Ogden.  Guy Kirkwood says there "aren't 60 miles of Utah" north of
Ogden, but it's supposed to be IN Utah.
        2) Site:  supposed to be radioactive waste storage site but
NRC knows of no such site in that area in Utah.  Only one is
70-90miles west or Salt Lake.
        3) Depth:  supposed to have been found at 640 feet deep and
2 objects brought up (these are about 40 feet tall/long, so that's
an enormous hole) but NRC says the typical nuclear waste storage
depth is 150 feet and spokesmen there said they'd never heard of
anyone going deeper than 300 feet, max, for such a site.  Casts
doubt on story.
        4) Other possible sites have been suggested near the Ogden
one: Amon, Idaho, or the Martin Thiokol plant at northern border of
UT or Nevada. Main sources are adamant it's northern Utah, though.
        5)  Hierglyphics:  supposedly the objects are covered in
them and they look more Arabic than anything else.  Linda Bird saw
the photos of them displayed by Guy Kirkwood and she made a tracing
of them and sent a copy of that tracing to me.  It does indeed look
Arabic.  Kirkwood is supposed to be contacting experts to confirm
this.  I suggested he try the Epigraphic Society in San Diego, where
they do specialize in ancient languages and espeially proto-semitic
or pre-Arabic.  No word yet on results.  The things are not
completely covered in these 'glyphs but mostly covered, Kirkwood
says.
        6) Nefilim link:  Kirkwood raised this point.  He says
they've been dated to a period which ties them in with the Nefilim.
He did not give me any solid info to support that.  It appears to be
only a connection he himself is making.  I have not confirmed from
him yet whether he spoke of the writings (glyphs) being dated or the
objects being dated.  Need more info.
        7) Peru:  Kirkwood said one person to whom he displayed
these photos asked if they were the objects found in Peru.  Kirkwood
didn't know of anythg like this there and the person told him he had
see pictures of what appeared to be an identical object with
identical writings on it found in Peru.  No confirmation.
        There are other things...connections to ancient tunnels in
Utah, inscriptions on the tunnel walls that match what's on the
objects, the metal (silvery-gray -- looks like steel but is non
ferrous & nonmagnetic) but the bottom line is that until I can speak
to the Original Source on this, there is NO proof of any of it.
        I have posted messages here in an effort to track down the
story, to find that proof.  I appreciate your healthy skepticism,
and we should all retain a degree of skepticism -- even Kirkwood
says so, and he's got the photos -- until we have some hard evidence.
        If there has been any suggestion that I started this story,
that is not correct. I have only been trying to track it down.
        If you have further questions, please ask again and I will
try to answer them as best I can.
                                        ==PN==
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: MICAP
Date: 29 Sep 91 17:21:00 GMT

Hi Mike,
        There have been some messages back and forth recently about
MICAP -- I don't have my copy of News.Asc handy, but thought you
might want to post a general info message on the boards so people
will know what MICAP is.  (One thought it was a military thing!)
                                        ==Peggy==
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Uncritical Thinking About The Lazar Material
Date: 30 Sep 91 03:30:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
 * Originally from Leonard Spani
 * Originally dated 09-27-91 12:04

From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Date: 26 Sep 91 22:41:05 GMT
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


I have been thinking recently about the Robert Lazar material relating
to the element-115 antimatter reactors that he claimed to work on at "S-4"
near Groom Lake, Nevada (Dreamland?) The antimatter reactors were alleged to
be the drive source for some of the alien craft studied in a secret U.S.
government base.

While I was tossing the information around in my head assessing it's
validity, I decided to think about some of the possible implications if
it *were* true. For the moment, I considered the information as valid
and tried to see where it would take me.

It was an exercise in uncritical thinking, and I am well aware that
it doesn't prove anything. I'm not trying to sell it to anyone and I don't
mind seeing it ripped to shreds, but it is *fun*, and there is always the
chance that something valid could come about as a result. What I am most
interested in is feedback on the ideas and any current information on the
Lazar material itself. Sorry in advance for the blatantly anthropomorphic
stuff.


Here is some of Lazar's claims (gleaned from net postings and Timothy
Good's book "Alien Liaison"):

- the U.S. government possesses at least 9 different alien space craft and
  some 500 lb (kg?) of element-115. 225 grams of element-115 are sufficient
  to power a reactor.
- the U.S. government has had "relations" with extraterrestrials who have
  cooperated at least partially in the U.S. attempt to use alien technology,
  either by providing it or by allowing us to keep what we recovered.
- the reactors produced a gravity wave when protons were fired at element-115.
  The gravity wave was then amplified and used to propel the "UFO" around the
  universe.
- one method of propulsion was to focus the gravity waves at a distant point
  in space and "pull" that point towards the ship together by bending space.
  When the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back into position and
  the ship would be in the new position. A new position that may be very,
  very far from the original position.
- Lazar claimed that ships using this drive mechanism could travel *much*
  faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't actually
  *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A to B and
  their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the speed of
  light.)
- the element-115 that all of this is supposed to be dependent on is claimed
  to be a naturally occurring (very heavy) element, but one that doesn't
  naturally occur around our particular point in the immediate universe.



Wild assumptions based on (temporarily) accepting the Lazar material:

(I am also temporarily accepting that there are several other
intelligent civilizations in the universe. The Lazar material hints
at this but doesn't explicitly state it as far as I remember.)

- the speed of light is not a barrier to the effective exploration of space,
  it is feasible to travel across galaxies quickly and efficiently.
- human scientists at Lazar's S-4 are capable of understanding the basic
  operations of the reactors which are based on an extension of currently
  known physics.
- If gravity *can* be used in this way, how long from now  would we discover
  it, perhaps 100 years (when the electromagnetic, strong, and weak forces are
  unified with gravity? :-)
- it seems likely that a given civilization would "discover" the new physics
  necessary to design similar craft at a stage of development perhaps only a
  hundred or so years in "advance" of our own. Earlier if they were given
  examples to play with.
- if the aliens allowed *us* to keep these craft, they probably allow other
  civilizations on other planets to retain and analyze similar craft.
- other civilizations could even develop the technology at a point earlier in
  their development than us if they had the element-115 occurring naturally on
  their planet (imagine if our 1890's physicists had a chunk of the stuff.)
  The  alien civilization could be traveling in space before they have
  developed other technologies.



Yeah, but does it explain anything?


Gross speculation based on wild assumptions generated by temporarily
accepting highly suspect material:

- maybe the little grey buggers really *don't* have a clue about proper
  medical procedures. They may not have progressed that far in the medical
  department. Maybe they thought hypnotic memory suppression was a good idea
  at the time. Maybe they don't mind needles up *their* noses (so why would
  we?)
- perhaps the variety of (humanoid) alien body shapes reported over the years
  (fairies/gnomes as well) is the result of the huge number of different alien
  civilizations all traveling around the universe at the same time.
  (The ammonia-sucking jellyfish would presumably travel to ammonia rich
  planets, leaving the humanoid's to visit "humanoid-friendly" planets :-)
- perhaps some of the aliens are not advanced enough to avoid crashing their
  saucers.
- the aliens may not be advanced enough to avoid contradicting themselves.
  ("Pictures are forbidden" - "Hey come here, get your camera")
- different groups of aliens could have very different motives, good and bad.
  Imagine what the CIA would do 100 years from now if we had mastered
  interstellar travel. Would our motives, methods, morals, ethics, and nature
  change that drastically in 100 years. The insignias and uniforms witnessed on
  UFO occupants could be their equivalent of the CIA.
- maybe the observed cultural tracking of UFO shapes takes place because they
  are still coming out with newer, more advanced models. Maybe even borrowing
  from our technology (or attempting to blend in.)
- with so many alien civilizations capable of flying around the universe, there
  could be some kind of cosmic "police force" that enforces universal laws
  against interfering with "primitive" cultures ala "Star Trek". Any aliens
  we see or contact would therefore be rebels.
- SETI may not have found evidence of extraterrestrial life because the
  aliens have arrived several million years before their radio signals.
- the *really* advanced civilizations probably *don't* get caught.


I better quit before I lose all sense of reality.

Hey - maybe this is how the National Enquirer comes up with their stuff :-)

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 483

                           Tuesday, October 1st 1991

Today's Topics:

                              More On Crop Circles
                               Stanton T. Friedman
                        Los Angeles To License Psychics?
                                    question?
                               UFO Events Calendar
                                      Micap
                                 Corder posting
                       Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                                    Implants
                         Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
                                 Ufology Quiz #2
                            Re: Kansas disappearances
                                  Re: Implants
                              Alleged tunnel borer

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: More On Crop Circles
Date: 30 Sep 91 03:34:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
 * Originally from David M. Schiff
 * Originally dated 09-29-91 17:51

From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Date: 29 Sep 91 19:19:17 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder, Department of Computer Science
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

I recently attended a presentation on the crop circle phenomenon put on
by two locals who became interested and conducted their own research by
travelling to England, seeing the circles themselves and talking to
researchers there.  They also obtained many amazing photographs which
formed the core of the presentaion.
Among the things they said:

1) Concerning Doug and Dave -- The original story only claimed they had
   faked about 200 circles, not all of them. The news service that supplied
   the story is a fake and the town given is supposedly used by
   MI5 to plant disinformation stories. There was also supposedly a
   meeting of the National Security Council on the circles. Nobody knows
   what went on at the meeting.
   Yeah, I know, there's a conspiracy behind every rock - I'm just reporting:-)

2a) There's a loss of phototropism in the plants inside a real circle.
    Actually she (Kit) said last year the plants would stay bent over and
    continue to grow whereas this year the original stem would stay
    bent but a new shoot would grow skyward.  Nevertheless it seems
    it should be a simple matter to separate the fakes from the "real"
    circles by merely observing them over some time interval to see
    if the stems try to right themselves or not. She said this
    was in fact observed.

2b) The seed heads of the plants inside the circles don't contain
    any seeds!!

3) Some sort of crystallographic analysis was done on cross-sections of
    plants taken from both inside & outside a circle.  They displayed slides
    which showed very marked differences.  exactly what was done or how, or
    how many samples were examined, etc. was not mentioned and I don't think
    they knew.
    Interestingly, she said that while there were many physical scientists
    over there weren't any biologists involved. It would seem to me that
    biological analysis of the plants could be very important.

4) This past summer, Japanese researchers cordoned off a field with
   burglar detection equipment over night.  The next morning when the
   fog lifted there was a "circle" in the field. Infrared detectors
   didn't detect any bodies in the field.

5) They had a slide of one pictogram which was supposedly verified as
   being a perfect Mandelbrot set. I don't know anything about Mandelbrot
   sets but one gentleman in the audience did and was very impressed.

I must say I take all this with a very large grain of salt, but nevertheless
found the photographic evidence to be quite impressive. If hoaxers are
doing it I take my hat off to them.

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Stanton T. Friedman
Date: 30 Sep 91 03:39:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
 * Originally from Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 09-29-91 20:37

For those interested and in the Colorado area:

MICAP (Multi-national Investigations Cooperative on Aerial Phenomena) will host
Stanton T. Friedman, a leading nuclear physicist and UFO lecturer, for two
conferences scheduled for Sunday, October 27, 1991, at the Glen Miller East
Ballroom at CU in Boulder starting at 7:00 P.M., and October 28, 1991, at the
Lindsey Auditorium at DU in Denver starting at 8:00 P.M.

As many of you know, Stan is considered to be very well informed on various
matters concerning UFO research.  He has been featured on numerous national
television programs, the latest on the Ron Reagan show.

If you wish further information, contact me voice at 303-431-8796, or email me
at [e-mail].

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Los Angeles To License Psychics?
Date: 30 Sep 91 03:45:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Alt.Paranormal"
 * Originally from Kevin D. Quitt
 * Originally dated 09-25-91 17:54

From: [e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt)
Date: 25 Sep 91 18:33:43 GMT
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal


    The Los Angeles Police Commission, in an effort to reduce the fraud
perpetrated on the public (to the tune of several million dollars a year
in Los Angeles) by crooks using soothsaying as a front, has recommended
to the L.A.  City Council that the city charge a $450 license fee for
soothsayers, so that they can be registered and regulated.

    The Police Commision report notes that one difficulty in the
licensing is that it is not possible to tell "true psychics from fake
psychics".

--
 _
Kevin D. Quitt              srhqla!venus!kdq     [e-mail]
3D systems, inc.            26081 Avenue Hall    Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE [phone] x430   FAX [phone]

                96.37% of all statistics are made up.

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Deane Ward)
Subject: question?
Date: 28 Sep 91 17:07:07 GMT

Hi Jim:
I have both taped conversations that would interest you.  I have the Art Bell
program with John and the interview with George Green.  Without too much delay
I will get them to you.  I would like any information you might share with me
on the Mount Shasta report ofn UFOs that was reported just a few days ago. I
heard a reference to this incident last night Sept 27th. on the Art Bell talk
show.  Either the report was made during the first hour of his program that is
not carried on KTAR  or that was the half-hour or so that I decided to sleep.
 I did talk to Chuck Christian and gave him the information that he wanted.  I
hope that you have heard from him by now.  If not I'm sure you will in the near
future.
Am driving myself crazy doing some (lots) of comparative records and am going
nuts.  (More than usual, anyway.)  Have finished the first volume of my first
project and preparing to start the second one.
The second prediction by Green, that the Mideast controversy would erupt again
began Thursday the day after he did hit exactly the earthquake on the 17th.
He did err in the intensisy of the quake.  He thought it would be between 8 and
10 on the SCALE.  It was only 5.1.
Interesting though.  Continuing to monitor and see what else I can find. Tried
the shortwave he said he was active in discussions with his alien friend but
have come up with blanks so far.
Still its interesting!
Tell Mary Hi, and best regards,
Deane Ward (Norma) on radio.  It creates less problems that way.

--
Deane Ward - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: UFO Events Calendar
Date: 28 Sep 91 17:32:00 GMT


 >  * The following are some upcoming events that will focus on UFOs.  I
 >  * share this with you in the hopes that the more people that know the
 >  * truth, that the truth will be known by more people.  I am in no
 >  * way involved with any of these events and share this for information
 >  * purposes only.  If you know of other UFO-type events, I welcome email
 >  * in this regards.         Enjoy.
 >  *********************************

Thank you, David. A regular posting like this is very needed here.


 > Nov sometime CUFOS
 >         Santa Barbara Center for Humanistic Studies
 >         Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1611
They're doing another one? Great! The first one was excellent!
 >           Col. R. O. Dean, USA, SHAPE UFO Commission
Is this how Command Sergeant Major Robert O. Dean was listed? Interesting....

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Micap
Date: 30 Sep 91 21:05:00 GMT


 >         There have been some messages back and forth recently about
 > MICAP -- I don't have my copy of News.Asc handy, but thought you might
 > want to post a general info message on the boards so people will know
 > what MICAP is.  (One thought it was a military thing!)

Well, it is a bit early for an announcement network-wide, but here goes...

MICAP is an acronym for the Multi-national Investigations Cooperative on
Aerial Phenomena.  It was founded in April of this year to address the growing
need for objective, scientific study of the UFO enigma.  It was fashioned in a
similar fashion after the old NICAP (National Investigative Committee on
Aerial Phenomena) which was a well-known group headed by the late Major Donald
Keyhoe.  Keyhoe's ambitions were not fully realized because of a series of
events that took place within his organization.  MICAP will organize a global
effort at focused research, the establishment of approved scientific and
investigative standards, among other things, which will bring about a
cooperative among the various existing, reecognized groups.  We have solicited
the cooperation of a number of groups and will be making a formal announcement
in the near future.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Corder posting
Date: 30 Sep 91 21:21:00 GMT

The following is the report on Dr. Scott Corder, whom we featured in our
International Predictions Registry some time ago.  Keep in mind that ParaNet
heavily disclaimed this material from the start as our investigation into
this matter yielded considerable unreliable information.  It is posted for
your information only.

(C) 1991 ParaNet(sm) Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.
****************************************************************
ParaNet File Number: 00117


DATE OF UPLOAD:  June 30, 1989
ORIGIN OF UPLOAD:  ParaNet Alpha
CONTRIBUTED BY:   Michael Corbin and Jim Speiser
========================================================

By Michael Corbin
ParaNet Director

     DENVER,  CO--Recently  ParaNet  placed a file in  it's  News
Library concerning Dr.  Scott Corder and his on going battle with
the  medical authorities in the state of Kansas over his 'strange
beliefs' about UFOs.  According to the article (31789KS.UFO), Dr.
Corder  came  to  fame after claiming to be in  contact  with  an
'Amorcan' named 'Peter' who claims to represent the 'good side of
the force.'  This relationship between Dr.  Corder and Peter  has
yielded  some highly controversial material,  which you will see,
has  been instrumental in his medical license being  revoked  and
his  career  as  a medical doctor  stopped  short.   What  little
background  that we have on this thus far seems to indicate  that
Dr.  Corder and a confident, Donna Butts, have had some prophetic
and  apocalyptic revelations told to them by this entity known as
the Apostle Peter.

     I  recently interviewed Dr.  Corder by telephone at his home
and  he  told me what has led up to this  point.   What  I  found
particularly  interesting was the story that he told me about how
he  came  to the attention of the Medical Review  Board  for  the
State  of Kansas.   Dr.  Corder was an investigator for CUFOS and
was contacted by them to investigate Donna Butts' story of having
alien contact.   Upon contacting Ms.  Butts,  Dr. Corder began to
become  involved in what was taking place between Ms.  Butts  and
'Peter.'   He  began to become concerned when he  was  told  that
President  Bush could be in danger of an assassination attempt in
late 89.   He was instructed by 'Peter' to send this  information
to  the  White House and he was shortly contacted by the FBI  and
investigated for providing this information.   During the  course
of  the investigation,  the FBI notified the Kansas State Medical
Board  and  Dr.   Corder  was  ordered  to  undergo   psychiatric
examination  in  Topeka,  Kansas  immediately or his  license  to
practice medicine would be revoked without further  notice.   Dr.
Corder  did  attend  one evaluation and was ordered to  attend  a
second  one.   He  refused  at this point citing that  it  was  a
violation  of  his privacy.   Shortly after that his  license  to
practice  medicine was revoked.   I asked him if he had  had  any
complaints of malpractice and he told me no.   In response to all
of  the  publicity that Dr.  Corder had  been  receiving,  People
Magazine  contacted him about doing a story on his contact.   Dr.
Corder  agreed,  however  shortly  after  that,  People  Magazine
withdrew citing that they had been contacted by government agents
and  told  to "shelve the story."  At the time of  this  writing,
this  has not been verified,  but we will check  this  out.   Dr.
Corder   sounded  very  sincere,   however  the  nature  of   the
revelations  are  very  apocalyptic and remind  one  of  Biblical
prophecy.    A full story on this case will be provided following
the investigation by ParaNet.

     What  follows  are a list of predictions that were  sent  to
ParaNet concerning the future according to 'Peter.'  Please  note
the  UFO  and UFO related predictions that are made and how  they
relate  to  the environmental and  economic  predictions.  Before
reading  this  material,  it is suggested  that  you  familiarize
yourself  with the article mentioned above so that you may get  a
better background about Dr.  Corder.   ParaNet is also conducting
an investigation into the nature and content of the material.  At
this   time,   we  are  rating  this  as  highly  unreliable  and
unsubstantiated and wish our readers to understand that until the
investigation  is complete,  this material must be viewed with  a
high level of skepticism and caution.   Again, the nature of this
material  is highly controversial and ParaNet does not  make  any
warranties  about  it's truth.   We will continue to update  this
material as it becomes available.  Your comments are welcomed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

           Current Prophecies:  written on June 11, 89

                              1989

1.   Oklahoma earthquake (4.0 to 6.0) soon,  probably before Aug.
89.
2.   New  leader of Iran,  new [Iattola,  ibid.],  is worse  than
first.  Small war breaks out in Persian Gulf, USA is involved.
3.   Probable attempt on President's life in August. 89, if he is
in the southeastern USA during that month.
4.   Huge earthquake located on Kansas/Missouri stateline now  to
late Aug. 89.
5.   Ivan  comes to USA in 89 and easing into power in Russia  in
late  89.   Ivan  is the False  Prophet.    [ed.  note:   We  are
attempting to find out who 'Ivan' is.]
6.  Dormant volcano erupts in Hawaii in 89.
7.  Hurricane in Gulf of Mexico in 89, UNPARALLELED!
8.   Events  to  bring the Bush Administration down in  late  89.
Possible nuclear warhead?  Nicaragua involvement?
9.  Limited nuclear exchange between now and March, 1991.
10.   Government in trouble with evil ET's.  Comes to us for help
in 89.

                          89 and/or 90

11.  Giant earthquake in China.  Late 89 or early 90.
12.  New oil reserves in US in 89 and 90.
12a.   Space shuttle of USA is intercepted and retained by UFO in
89  or 90.   Released after several hours.   Causes  panic.   All
defense  locations  shut down during  interception.   Same  thing
happens with Russia later the same year.

                              1990

13.   Bob Dole,  of Russell,  Ks., becomes the next, greatest and
last  president  of the United States.   Temporary "white  house"
set up in Russell.  Russell bombed and Dole escapes.
14.  Governments acknowledge UFOs in late 89 or early 90.
15.  Open contact with governments by Amorcans, (The Good ET's or
Angels).
16.  Earthquake in California--unbelievable!
17.   Contact  with  government by Creasians,  the evil  ET's  or
Angels, is revealed.
18.  Stock market crash, again.
19.   New  virus  killer reaches USA.   Hideous sores  with  most
people susceptible.
20.  Cures for arthritis, cancer, M.S. very probable.
20a.    Nuclear  plants  in  Russia  and  USA  experience  nearly
simultaneous explosions.
21.   More fires, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and devastating
weather patterns [excalate, ibid.] by two witnesses for God.
22.  Ozone becomes worse and by 91 temp. rise of 10 to 30 degrees
around the world.
23.  Russia closing seaports and war begins.

                           1990 to 91

24.   Pollution in streams and rivers and finally oceans,  so bad
that sea life explodes, turning water to blood.
25.   Food  shortages and radiation sickness in USA.   Result  of
drought and limited nuclear strike between Nicaragua and USA.
26.  True Anti-Christ arising.
27.   Rioting  and  panic,  caused by  stock  markets,  droughts,
unemployment, food shortages, and UFOs.
28.  Land masses, (small islands), simply disappearing.  90-93.

                              1991

29.   People killing and burning those with new virus.  At first,
quarantined, then destroyed.
30.  Easing out of fossil fuel.
31.  Floods begin from melting icebergs, into 1992, from increase
in temperatures around the world.

                              1992

32.   New economy and temporary prosperity  set up by Anti-Christ
when he takes power.
33.   Creasians,  the  Darkside Et's or evil  angels,  activating
subconscious  programming  of  subjects,   causing  insanity  and
instantaneous combustion.
34.   S.D.I.  deployed  in  defense of world  against  UFOs,  but
ineffective even with countries working together.

Note:   These  prophecies  were received by Donna  between  about
March, 87, to February, 88.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

END

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Don Sudduth)
Subject: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 1 Oct 91 05:15:00 GMT

> > Also, one of the most interesting facts about this case was the time lag
> > of one of the observer's shadow on the UFO from the background lights.
> > He noticed that his shadow had about a half second delay lagging behind
> > his movements (suggesting some sort of time displacement?????)
>
>What an extremely specific and painstaking observation to make
>when one is in the presence of a UFO....where'dya hear this
>one?
>
>Jim
>

"Wallace and the men with him walked around the object and noticed
an interesting effect. Their own shadows were cast onto the object,
probably by the bright "light-alls" in the field.  Not only did
their shadows bend upwards at the head, but as they walked and the
stopped, the shadows would appear to advance one pace more and then
stop."
        -Clear Intent  by Lawrence Fawcett and Barry Greenwood
         page 216 about the Rendlesham Forest case.



(I guess my memory fabricated the half second delay - but it does
sound like some sort of delay!)
--
Don Sudduth - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Implants
Date: 1 Oct 91 05:27:00 GMT


JS> $200,000???????????? HEY DAVE! CAN I HELP??????!!!!

And to think some people still believe ufology isn't lucrative!

BTW, I also understand that David and Budd are going to begin
travelling around the country teaching regressive hypnosis. Pretty
neat stuff coming from an artist and history professor.

But what do I know, I'm a pharmacist/jeweler.

I still have to talk to you about a few things, Jim. I'll try to
call you again soon.

Sheldon


--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: wrs.com!davidj
Subject: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Date: 1 Oct 91 05:32:19 GMT

From: [e-mail] (David Jones)



 *************************************************************************
 * I share this with you in the hopes that the more people that know the *
 *         truth, that the truth will be known by more people.           *
 *************************************************************************

I recently attended the Whole Life Expo in San Jose.  Richard Hoagland took
part in two talks and one panel discussion, which he moderated.  He indicated
that he was now revealing information that he had never before revealed.  I
share with you my notes.  I present this with the knowledge that in order
to fully understand this material; in order to be able to corroborate or
disprove what he claims, you must first review the evidence that he presents.
This which I state should be obvious but, as I have woefully discovered, many
readers of this will jump to conclusions before doing their homework.  I
apologize for any redundancy and pray you will forgive my incompleteness.
Any discrepancies are most likely my misunderstanding rather than Richard's
information.

There is a new paradigm of man`s origins currently evolving in our
consciousness on this planet.  Up until now, we have had 2 choices:
Creationism (whatever the Bible says has to be true) and Evolution (Darwinism:
we evolved out of some primordial soup).  This new paradigm, as the Sumerians
of Sitchen indicated, is that we came from the Heavens (meaning other planets
in other star systems), a sort of extra-galactic Darwinism.  Richard used
phrases like: '... mitocondrial DNA scientists ...' "  and "... self-reflective
dimensional expansion' to describe this idea.  Using the photographs from the
Mars mission, with 150 foot per pixel resolution, and using techno-hacker
wizardry, he shows that we are in the process of matriculating into racial
maturity.  He has created a gorgeous video (currently available) created from
the stills of the Mars mission and made into three dimensional fly-bys of
the face, the pyramids and the city.  He quotes Zechariah Sitchen 'someone
is meddling ...'.

In order to completely realize the possible truth of the material presented
in his discussions, you should understand tetrahedral geometry and it's
associated simple trigonometry.  Tetrahedral geometry only works with a
360 degree system with 60 minutes of arc and 60 seconds per minute.  In
addition, 12 is a fundamental aspect of this system.  Richard Hoagland used
two universal constants and their ratio, in order to substantiate his claims.
These two numbers are pi (3.14) and e, the base of natural logarithms
(2.72), and the resulting ratio: e/pi ~= 0.865.

For instance. it you take the slope of the Great Pyramid in Egypt, and
divide it by the 60 degrees, it's top angle, you get 0.865.  This is
replicated for the pyramids on Mars.  Through tetrahedral geometry, he shows
how we are converging on an Universal Geometry.  Tetrahedral geometry is what
we have in a 360 degree circle and that which gives us 24 hours in a day,
both with with 60 minutes and 60 seconds.  Whoever built the  Egyptian
pyramid, had the same knowledge as whoever it was that built the face and the
city on Mars.  The Martians used a 360 degree system.  Sitchen shows that
the ancient Sumerians (c. 8500 BC) used the 360 degree system and counted
minutes and degrees of arc by 60's, just like the Martians.  The Martian year
is equivalent to 687 Earth days. The Fibonacci spiral is a tetrahedral
mathematic.  Follow the numbers and follow the logic.....

The Egyptian Pyramids are made of  calcium carbonate which has an internal
structure that is exactly like the structure of the pyramid (in Egypt) itself.
There are 20,000 books written on the Egyptian pyramids.  It is located 5' 30'
of direct North.  This is caused by tektonic plate movements (otherwise it
would be direct north).  The plate that it sits on moves an approximate
maximum of 1' arc every 45,000 years.  This means that it would take about
247,000 years to get to it's present position.  The mean arc location is 4'
which gives about 180,000 years or, an estimation that the pyramids in Egypt
were REALLY build about 214,000 years ago (give or take).  The pyramids (in
Egypt) were weathered by water, not wind.  This is an intentional
misinterpretation by scholars so as not to get into trouble with their
colleagues and not challenge western religions.  The Sphinx dates to a time
to before when the Sahara was desert.

The land forms found on Mars are NOT those done by Nature.  The angles formed
by the pyramids are impossible for nature to create.  There are too many
variations on the e/pi constant.  Even the latitude on Mars where the city/
face/pyramid are found is a function of e/pi.  He spent several hours creating
an exquisite mathematical trail showing that the pyramid on Mars, the
pyramid at Gizeh and, co-equivalently, the Sphinx in Egypt, are all more than
200,000 years old.  More specifically, about 217,000 +/-  15,000 years.  It
is impossible for me to go into all the details, but he had people from 3
different professions, all working independently and unknown to the others,
who had all come to the same conclusions in regards to the age of the Egyptian
pyramids.  The D & M pyramid (on Mars) is self-referential (it knows where it
is).  It is located at 30 degree North latitude just like the Egyptian pyramid
on Earth..

Mars has two carbon moons.  The planet Mars does not contain this carbon.  The
moons appear to be asteriods that the Martians, using technology that is
available to us today, moved into Martian orbit and, apparently, to mine.
The two moons are in perfect circular orbits around Mars.  Phobos is spiraling
inward toward Mars.  The density of Phobos is 1.95 which means that 30% is
missing, or hollowed out, or mined.  Richard believes that the Soviets covered
up the truth of this by saying that it was a UFO that grabbed up their
spacecraft and by so doing, knew that the mainstream press would not touch
the story.  The Russians probably have close up photos of extraterrestrial
artifacts (a Martain monkey wrench?) and Marina Popovich went around the world
and spread false rumors to put the nail in the coffin in order to cover-up
the Truth.  The Phobos orbit is 20 Km off true circular, due to it's decaying
orbit.  If it were circular to begin with, it would have taken 217,000 years
to cause it to be off course at it's present rate.  Something disruptive
happened on Mars at that time (217,000 years ago).  Something attacked the
city there.  The Egyptian word for Shinx means, the ending, inferring
an ending of one thing (Martain civilization) -- a beginning somewhere else
(planet Earth).

He speaks of the Nephalim, 'Those who were cast down', or "Giants" and by
so indicating he infers that there was a war of some sort on Mars about
about 217,000 years ago and that they `escaped' to planet Earth.

The ratio of the Earth to it's moon is .272.  The moon takes 27.32 (Earth)
days to orbit the Earth.  It should be 27.2.  If we interpolate the difference
and how much the Earth's moon is moving away, we get 200,000 years ago for
our moon to be the 27.2 he speaks of.  Was OUR moon put there by
extraterrestrials that escaped to this planet to mine? Will we find
extraterrestrial artifacts on our own moon? (Maybe we already have?)

Carl Sagan and Richard Hoagland used to be friends.  In public, Sagan says
that this information is nonsense, but in private, he says something quite
different.

Richard indicated that he will read anything that will bring him even 1
data point closer to the Truth.

Original cassette tapes of the above may be obtained from the Whole Life
Expo tape people (email me for the number).

Video tapes of the above presentations, and more information on this may be
obtained from Richard Hoagland's organization, The Mars Mission (they publish a
quarterly journal entitled Martian Horizons) from:

 The Mars Mission
 P.O. Box 123
 Danville, CA 94526-0123

  ***************************************************************************
 *  COMING NEXT:  My discussions with Wendelle Stevens regarding Grey        *
 *         aliens from the Reticulum Star cluster and his playing of a       *
 *         cassette tape of the sounds of one of their space ships.          *
  ***************************************************************************

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------


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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Ufology Quiz #2
Date: 1 Oct 91 03:15:00 GMT

Hi Everyone:

Ready for the next Quiz??

Who said:

  "I've been flying now for 44 years, and I'm the last guy that's going
to say I don't believe they're [UFO's] up there.  I've never seen one,
but when Air Force pilots, Navy pilots, Airline pilots tell me they see
something come up on their wing that wasn't an airplane, I have to
believe them."

DATE:  November, 1973.

Thanks,

Linda Bird


--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Subject: Re: Kansas disappearances
Date: 1 Oct 91 07:37:00 GMT

I tend to avoid tabloid television, so I didn't see that story.

It's odd that Scott Corder wouldn't say where they were, but then the story
came out in the newspapers that they were going to Israel.

--
Jim Shaffer - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: afglsc.span.nasa.gov!webb
Subject: Re: Implants
Date: 1 Oct 91 15:32:03 GMT

From: [e-mail]

To: Sheldon Wernikoff: You and Keith refered to David Pritchard's paper on
the Price implant case. You maybe should write David directly about this
case; I don't know his email address. Write to him at the Dept. of Physics,
MIT, Cambridge, MA 02139. Mention my name and Paranet.  I could also send
you a copy of the TREAT report if you give me your address, but probably it
is best to get it from him. His opinion which is also stated in the report
is that the penile implant can be explained as earthly material. One point
is that there is a whole zoo of exotic manmade and natural materials being
discovered or revealed when studied with the new ultra-magnification
instruments which will make it more difficult to 'prove' that alleged
implants are alien. It seems like the more new kinds of 'evidence' about
the UFO phenomenon we uncover (like implants and crop circles) the harder
it becomes to prove an alien cause.

I look forward to getting Jacobs book. I know he had a hard time getting a
publisher for it. I don't believe Dave has the time or inclination to
run the Abduction echo. Perhaps Mike should consider getting someone else
to run it.

Dave Webb




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ucs.usl.edu!pgwres01
Subject: Alleged tunnel borer
Date: 1 Oct 91 15:32:53 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Fraering Philip G)


Might it be possible that one of you people could put the pictures
in electronic format and post?

Phil Fraering
[e-mail]




********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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 For administrative requests (subscriptions, back issues) send to:

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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 484

                           Saturday, October 5th 1991

Today's Topics:

                               Ham Radio Voiceover
                                Re: ogden object
                              Re: Your bbs's number
                               Re: Ufology Quiz #2
                     Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                              Re: Tesla & Hungarian
                                    Re: Micap
                                    Re: Micap
                              Re: Tesla & Hungarian
                     Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                                     (none)
                        Third Prophecy of Fatima Revealed
                                  Re: Implants
                                  Frederik Bell
                                    question?
                       Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                                    Implants
                               Belgium Videotapes
                               Re: Ufology Quiz #2
                Re: Uncritical Thinking About The Lazar Material
                                 I'm still here
                           VISIT / NASA / CONSPIRACIES
                           Visit / Nasa / Conspiracies
                               Re: Upcoming Shows

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ncar!apple.com!well!gmz
Subject: Ham Radio Voiceover
Date: 2 Oct 91 05:39:13 GMT

From: well![e-mail] (Gerry Zeitlin)

Yes, anyone (depending on license class) can jump in and
transmit over the NASA broadcast.  Whether or not their
transmission will be heard at any given receiving point;
whether it will sound like the original transmission;
whether or not it will generate a heterodyne or severe
distortion is problematical, depending on type of modulation
used, propagation conditions, relative locations of the
two transmitters, relative transmitter power levels, etc.

In other words, this is not a simple explanation, and it
could be a red herring.

--
---------------------------------------------------------
gerry zeitlin    [e-mail]
---------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: Re: ogden object
Date: 2 Oct 91 05:42:01 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

To: Linda Bird

This is the other Jim <grin>.  You say people have identified it as a
tunnel borer?  A man-made tunnel borer, I hope!  (But then why has nobody
claimed ownership of it (or *them*, I should say), and what's all this
about unidentified writing?)

--
  *  From the disk of: |  [e-mail]   | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr. |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752 |  [e-mail]  | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Your bbs's number
Date: 13 Sep 91 06:29:01 GMT

> Hi, Rick. I am a caller from New York State who has been interested in
> psi and related disciplines for many years, and I have a good friend
> who lives in San Francisco who would love to get the ParaNet feed that
> I get in New York. Could you please give me the number of your BBS, as
> well as any other relevant electronic addresses, so that my friend
> could access your board? He has a Macintosh Classic with a 1200 baud
> modem. Do you anticipate any problems with such a configuration
> gaining access and is your board a subscription board? If it is, what
> are your fees?

Joe --

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you on this.  I haven't been
reading here often, of late.

There are absolutely no fees required for full access to ParaNet <sm>
Alpha Centauri, and your Mac-using friend is welcome.  However, I'll
have to register him manually, since my board now disallows new 1200
bps callers.  (2400 bps modems are really incredibly cheap, and quicklyr
repay the expense in better access, lower frustration, and lower 'phone
bills.)  Please ask your friend to call my home number and leave his
desired sign-on name, desired password, and 'phone number in case
there's any need for a call-back.  I'm at 415-570-5998 (VOICE!).

The board (!!) is at 415-648-8944, and will be a local call for your
friend.  It's reachable by e-mail at ParaNet 9:1012/2, FidoNet 1:125/27,
and RBBS-Net 8:914/207.  By Internet, it can be reached at the Unix
renditions of any of the preceding addresses, such as Your_Name@f207.
n914.z8.rbbs-net.org  Since I'm Secretary of Bay Area Skeptics and a
member of the CSICOP Electronic Communications Subcommittee, much
activity on the board concerns that, but I make a studied effort at
diversity of views, all of which are welcome.  (For that matter, the
same can be said of Bay Area Skeptics.)

I hope this helps!

Best Regards,
Rick Moen

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Ufology Quiz #2
Date: 1 Oct 91 20:07:00 GMT

LB>  "I've been flying now for 44 years, and I'm the last guy
LB>that's going to say I don't believe they're [UFO's] up
LB>there.  I've never seen one, but when Air Force pilots,
LB>Navy pilots, Airline pilots tell me they see something come
LB>up on their wing that wasn't an airplane, I have to believe
LB>them."


Hmmm ... let me make an inspired guess:  Barry Goldwater?

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 1 Oct 91 20:22:00 GMT

DS>"Wallace and the men with him walked around the object and
DS>noticed an interesting effect. Their own shadows were cast
DS>onto the object, probably by the bright "light-alls" in the
DS>field.  Not only did their shadows bend upwards at the
DS>head, but as they walked and the stopped, the shadows would
DS>appear to advance one pace more and then stop."
DS>        -Clear Intent  by Lawrence Fawcett and Barry

Hi Don.  This is not the only observation of this localized time-shifting
phenomenon.

There was a CE-II in the late 1950s/early '60s in which the observers saw an
Adamski-like disk, complete with some kind of control cabin on top that had
two portholes (on the side that they could see).  The inside of the object
was lit, and they saw shadows moving thru the portholes.  Now, get this:  as
the disk maneuvered it shifted color, and as it shifted color, the movement
of the shadows/silouettes through the portholes either froze or sped up to
cartoon-like swiftness!  You should excuse the expression, but the
occupants' shadows sometimes looked pixilated (a fine old word, which means
"taken over by pixies").

The simplest explanation is a localized time-shift around the UFO.  This
accounts for the color shift, the changes of buoyancy of the object (by
shifting time, an object of solid metal can become lighter than air and
float like a balloon), *and the oddly discontinuous rate of activity by the
occupants of the thing, whoever they were.*

A localized time shift mechanism can also account for observations like:

* Right-angle turns at 1200 knots (they're really very conventional turns at
a UFO time-local speed of 25 knots, accellerated 50 times by a time-shift)

* UFOs that appear out of nowhere (they were there all along, but with local
time accellerated to the point that the object becomes superdense and *bends
light around it*.  Result: invisibility.

* UFOs that vanish into thin air (reverse the above process).


I may be the only person who thinks this (and I may be wrong), but Robert
Lazar's "frozen candle" would *exactly describe* the type of localized,
time-shifted field required to explain UFO performance characteristics and
"magic".

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Tesla & Hungarian
Date: 1 Oct 91 20:48:00 GMT

LB>Hi Clark,
LB>
LB>You should go into show biz!!

Hello Leeen-da.  I've been considering it, times are so bad here in the
east.

Now that I think about it, I could put together a touring lecture where I'd
do my usual hypnotic regressions and channel my friends Madame Blavatsky,
Bonny Prince Charlie, and a cute little Pleidian named Menenlia Svelta.

At the conclusion of the lecture, I'm even considering offering some pieces
from my collection of rare artifacts given to me by the distasteful
Reticulan time-travelers. These include bronzed Mastodon droppings direct
from ancient Mastodon mutes. They look very similar to crispy cow pies
(but they're rather larger and tastefully bronzed!).  Suitable for
mounting for proud display: $129.95. On walnut wall plaque, $149.95.  VISA,
MasterCard & Discover accepted.  NY, NJ and CT residents add appropriate
sales tax.

Or order by phone!  1-800-SAD-SCAM.  Have your credit card waiting when you
call.

[Plastic replica Mastodon turds are also available:  1/2 size.  Gold.
$24.95.  They make great frisbees for the kids!]

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bruce Johnson)
Subject: Re: Micap
Date: 2 Oct 91 03:25:00 GMT

Mike,

You may not remember me but we first chatted on CI$ back a year or two
I was wondering if you {could give me the lowdown on how a BBS applies
to become a paranet node, or at least get the feed. I have a {new
friend who runs a board in Va called Uforia, name of Allen, who would
very much like to get on board. I promised I would try to connect with
you for him.  John Hicks gave me ann internet node with which to
contact you, but I was hoping for something a little more extensive. I
can give you a fax # to send membership forms to, even.

        Good beaming at cha <g>
Bruce
--
Bruce Johnson - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Micap
Date: 2 Oct 91 14:12:00 GMT

>You may not remember me but we first chatted on CI$ back a year
>or two I was wondering if you {could give me the lowdown on
>how a BBS applies to become a paranet node, or at least get the
>feed. I have a {new friend who runs a board in Va called
>Uforia, name of Allen, who would very much like to get on
>board. I promised I would try to connect with you for him.
>John Hicks gave me ann internet node with which to contact you,
>but I was hoping for something a little more extensive. I can
>give you a fax # to send membership forms to, even.

Have your friend netmail me at 104/422 in Fidonet.  I will be happy to get
him an application and get him hooked in.

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Tesla & Hungarian
Date: 2 Oct 91 14:17:00 GMT

My order is in the mail!  How vogue!!

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Sudduth)
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 3 Oct 91 02:54:00 GMT

>Hi Don.  This is not the only observation of this localized
>time-shifting phenomenon.
>
>There was a CE-II in the late 1950s/early '60s in which the
>observers saw an Adamski-like disk, complete with some kind of
>control cabin on top that had two portholes (on the side that
>they could see).  The inside of the object was lit, and they
>saw shadows moving thru the portholes.  Now, get this:  as the
>disk maneuvered it shifted color, and as it shifted color, the
>movement of the shadows/silouettes through the portholes either
>froze or sped up to cartoon-like swiftness!  You should excuse
>the expression, but the occupants' shadows sometimes looked
>pixilated (a fine old word, which means "taken over by
>pixies").
>
>The simplest explanation is a localized time-shift around the
>UFO.  This accounts for the color shift, the changes of
>buoyancy of the object (by shifting time, an object of solid
>metal can become lighter than air and float like a balloon),
>*and the oddly discontinuous rate of activity by the occupants
>of the thing, whoever they were.*
>
>Best,
>  Clark

Now, the question is, what is causing the time-shifting?  Why would
shifting time change the buoyancy of an object?  The only way I can
think of a localized time-shift being created is with some sort of
gravitation effect.  This would account for any color shifts.
Gravity is a very long force - what could cause a local shift?  This
same question applies to Lazar's comments about element 115 and his
experiences with localized gravitation.  He mentioned throwing an
object at this "black box" that has element 115 in it and the object
being deflected.  The only problem with this is that in order to
create a field of such strength requires gravitational effects at
much larger distances???

Any thoughts, speculations, questions??   Does anyone else have some
idea??

Sincerely,    Don Sudduth
>
--
Don Sudduth - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 3 Oct 91 03:31:50 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


Subject: Third Prophecy of Fatima Revealed


?  From: [e-mail] (John Hrusovszky)
?  Subject: Ufo Tie-Ins?
?  Date: 3 Sep 91 04:58:53 GMT
?
?  Something has been bugging me for quite some time.  It is the
?  relationship of Fatima and UFO's.  Does anyone have any information at
?  all about the 3'rd revealing of Fatima that I have heard mentioned?
?
?

There's no mention of UFOs, but here is an article from
Weekly World News, p 20-21 June 18, 1991.
Forgive the hype and shouting; I don't think they can help themselves.
There's as much text in the headlines as in the article.

----------------------------------------------------

First two predictions made by the Virgin Mary in
1917 both came true, & now...

Third Prophecy of Fatima Revealed

The NEWS blows lid off Vatican's most horrifying secret!

Terrible war will wipe out almost every man, woman and child in 1993!

By Nick Mann

An Italian journalist has blown the lid off the most closely guarded
secret in the history of religion, the third prophecy of Fatima--which
is the last and most important prediction that the Virgin Mary gave to
three little Portuguese peasant children in 1917!

And far from describing an era of peace and happiness as some people
had hoped, the prophecy foretells of monstrous plagues and war that
will devastate the world and bring pain and death to virtually every
man, woman and child on the planet in 1993.

'The prophecy speaks of unimaginable horrors and a punishment that will
make the Great Flood look like a Sunday school picnic,' said Mario
Soluri, who claims to have obtained a copy of the prophecy from a
highly placed source on May 3.

'It's not surprising that the Vatican did everything in its power
to keep the prophecy secret,' continued the Rome-based journalist.
'The truth is almost sure to cause fear and panic throughout the
world.

'But as a human being, journalist and true believer myself,
I feel that the truth must be told.'

The Vatican refused to comment on Soluri's report in spite of repeated
attempts to get a confirmation, denial or statement of any kind.

A spokesman privately conceded that Soluri 'knows a lot of people' and
might well have been able to get his hands on the prophecy, which has
been under lock and key at the Vatican since 1943--26 years after the
Virgin appeared to 10-year-old Lucia dos Santos and her cousins,
Francisco, 9, and Jacinta Marto, 7, near Fatima, Portugal, in 1917

The Vatican has officially recognized that the Virgin appeared to
the children on several occasions before the year was out.

And there's no doubt that two of her three prophecies have already come true.

In the first prediction the Virgin said that little Jacinta
and Francisco would die soon and in fact, they died within a year.

She also predicted the end of World War I and the beginning of World War II.

But her third prediction was so horrifying that Lucia kept it to
herself until the Vatican finally ordered her to put it on paper
and swore her to secrecy in 1943.

The complete text provided by Soluri appears below.

  Complete Text of Divine Warning:

  'A great plague will befall mankind in 1993.  Nowhere in the world
  will there be order, and Satan will rule the highest places, determining
  the way of things.

  'Satan will even succeed in asserting himself at the top of the church.

  'He will succeed in seducing the spirits of the great scientists who invent
  arms, with which it will be possible to destroy a very large part
  of humanity in a few minutes.

  'Satan will have in his power the powerful who command the people and who
  will incite them to produce enormous quantities of arms.

  'God will punish man more thoroughly than with the Flood.  There will come
  the time of all times and the end of all ends.  The great and powerful
  will perish together with the small and weak.

  'Even for the church, it will be the time of its greatest trial.
  Cardinals will oppose cardinals, bishops will oppose bishops.

  'Satan will walk in their midst, and in Rome there will be great changes.
  The church will be darkened, and the world will be shaking with terror.

  'A huge war will erupt.  Fire and smoke will fall down from the sky.

  'The waters of the ocean will become mist, and the foam will rise to
  tremendous heights and everyone will drown.

  'Millions and millions of men will die from hour to hour.  Whoever
  remains alive will envy the dead.

  'Everywhere one turns one's glance there will be anguish and misery,
  ruins in every country.

  'The time draws nearer, the abyss widens without hope.  the good will`
  perish with the bad, the great with the small, the princes
  of the church with the faithful, the rulers with their people.

  'There will be death everywhere because of the errors committed by
  the crazed and the followers of Satan, who will then and only then
  rule the world.

  'At the last, those who survive will at every chance newly proclaim
  God and His glory and they will serve Him as when the world was
  not so perverted.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The only comment I would add is that if one lived in Iraq right now,
one might think that this prediction had already come true.

Greg ([e-mail])





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Re: Implants
Date: 3 Oct 91 05:29:00 GMT



Hi, Dave...and thanks much for supplying David Pritchard's address
at MIT. I most certainly do have some questions I'd like to ask him
about the Price case.

You mention that...'his opinion is that the penile implant can be
explained as *Earthly* (emphasis my own) material'. Do you mean
that Pritchard believes the composite material of the implant to be
of terrestrial fabrication, or that the material's elemental
constituents are native to Earth? As you say Dave, it would seem to
be extremely difficult to prove an object to be of alien origin
based on physical attributes alone. For example, elemental
magnesium mined on Earth would in all likelihood be identical to
that which might be found on any planet, in any galaxy. The heavy
elements, according to modern cosmological theory, are formed when
a star goes supernova - a process which occurs throughout the
universe.

However, there may be subtle differences in atomic and molecular
structure which we have not yet learned how to detect. For example,
even though a Colombian emerald and a Zambian emerald have the same
chemical composition, a gemologist can discern the source by
determining the geometry of crystallization - which is distinctive
for each locale. Perhaps magnesium found on a planet orbiting Gamma
Triangulum Australis might also have some elusive dissimilarity to
the terrestrial element. Of course, this analogy may not hold true
universally, but it is theoretically engaging.

As far as the abduction echo, I agree that an echo moderator is
long overdue, since Jacobs has not been active for close to a year.
However, this position should be filled by a qualified
professional, not just a body to fill the slot. I wish Mike all the
best in this endeavor.

Finally, if you could send me a copy of Pritchard's TREAT 11
report, I would be most grateful, and will reimburse you for your
expenditure. My mailing address is:

                > SHELDON WERNIKOFF
                > 9200 NILES CENTER RD
                > SKOKIE, IL 60076-1548

Thanks again for your response,

-= Sheldon =-

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Frederik Bell
Date: 2 Oct 91 18:50:00 GMT


 >> Hello Jim!
 >> hello All!
 >>

 > Howdy, Andre!  Wie geht's Ihnen?  Hoffentlich wird der Berliner Luft ein
 > bisschen reiner?
                                                          ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^

Didn't you just call him a Flying Jelly Donut?


Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: question?
Date: 2 Oct 91 19:01:00 GMT


 > I have both taped conversations that would interest you.  I have the Art
 > Bell program with John and the interview with George Green.  Without too
 > much delay I will get them to you.

Great...I can make copies at work and send them back to you, if you prefer.

 > I would like any information you
 > might share with me on the Mount Shasta report ofn UFOs that was

Sorry, haven't heard a thing about it. Mt. Shasta receives a lot of UFO
"miscellaneous" UFO reports, much the way the Sedona Vortex does.

 > The second prediction by Green, that the Mideast controversy would erupt
 > again began Thursday the day after he did hit exactly the earthquake on
 > the 17th.  He did err in the intensisy of the quake.  He thought it
 > would be between 8 and 10 on the SCALE.  It was only 5.1.
 > Interesting though.  Continuing to monitor and see what else I can find.
 > Tried the shortwave he said he was active in discussions with his alien
 > friend but have come up with blanks so far.
 > Still its interesting!

Yes, that it is. I'd love to get in touch with this Green fellow, to see if he
has any more predictions for us.

 > Tell Mary Hi, and best regards,

Same to you!

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 2 Oct 91 19:06:00 GMT


 >>
 >>What an extremely specific and painstaking observation to make
 >>when one is in the presence of a UFO....where'dya hear this
 >>one?
 >>
 >>Jim
 >>
 > .
 > "Wallace and the men with him walked around the object and noticed an
 > interesting effect. Their own shadows were cast onto the object,
 > probably by the bright "light-alls" in the field.  Not only did their
 > shadows bend upwards at the head, but as they walked and the stopped,
 > the shadows would appear to advance one pace more and then stop."
 >         -Clear Intent  by Lawrence Fawcett and Barry Greenwood
 >          page 216 about the Rendlesham Forest case.
 > .
 > .
 > .
 > (I guess my memory fabricated the half second delay - but it does sound
 > like some sort of delay!)
 > ---

OK, gotcha. Art Wallace, by the way, is Larry Warren. Somehow the observation doesn't surprise me, co
ming
from him.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Implants
Date: 2 Oct 91 19:06:00 GMT


 > JS> $200,000???????????? HEY DAVE! CAN I HELP??????!!!!

 > And to think some people still believe ufology isn't lucrative!

 > BTW, I also understand that David and Budd are going to begin
 > travelling around the country teaching regressive hypnosis. Pretty
 > neat stuff coming from an artist and history professor.

 > But what do I know, I'm a pharmacist/jeweler.

 > I still have to talk to you about a few things, Jim. I'll try to
 > call you again soon.

 > Sheldon


I'm here, buddy! Call away...best bet is at the office....602-994-9877.

Thanks,
        Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Belgium Videotapes
Date: 2 Oct 91 21:34:00 GMT

I keep hearing about "dozens" of videotapes from the Belgian flap. Can anyone
confirm that there are such tapes, besides the one shown on Hard Copy? Does
anyone in the States have them in their possession? CAN I GET A COPY?

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Ufology Quiz #2
Date: 3 Oct 91 00:43:00 GMT

Clark!

You're a genius!  Das ist gut!  And you are CORRECT!  It certainly was
Barry Goldwater.

Thanks!

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Uncritical Thinking About The Lazar Material
Date: 2 Oct 91 03:25:41 GMT

Hi Leonard,

Wow!  I was dazzled by your post!!  W#ill give me something to think about on
my 45-min. commute to work each morning!!  Keep the ideas flowing........
Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: ncar!mrc-crc.ac.uk!carbon.crc.ac.uk!mrc-crc.ac.uk!sgamble
Subject: I'm still here
Date: 3 Oct 91 21:16:03 GMT

From: Steve Gamble x3293 <[e-mail]>

Hi Folks,

This is just a quick message to all those people who have been
expecting replies from me to Paranet messages to say that I am
still alive and WILL get around (hopefully in a few days) to
replying. I've been a bit snowed under with work.

I hope to be able to post some replies before Bulletin 483, but
just in case..... I am still here!!

Steve Gamble




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Beatty)
Subject: VISIT / NASA / CONSPIRACIES
Date: 4 Oct 91 03:52:00 GMT

Re: NASA's Project VISIT -

I've made a possible connection between this alleged NASA group and
the UFO phenomenon.  I have made inquiries via the internet and will
post any positive results - if anyone is interested.

My focus is correlating live-TV testimony from an alleged abductee
that she was "regressed...a dozen times...by Dr. Richard Haines,
head of NASA Special Projects..." - it appeared last week on the
Ron Reagan Jr./FOX Network talk show (I have it on VHS videotape.)
- with the recent references to project VISIT here on Paranet.

As soon as she made her statement, another guest, _PHIL KLASS_
jumped on her and stated "Dr. Richard Haines is NOT the head of.."
She replied "No, he's retired."

I heard tonite that MCA/Matsushita de-funded the R.R.Jr talk show
on FOX-TV.  (Chuck Harder's show via WWCR/Nashville, 7435 s-wave.)

Can anyone illuminate this further?  I'm also studying Inslaw, the
Casolaro murder, and the October Surprise  (Where WAS George ?)

Any ideas for more info?  Care to comment?  I'd be grateful.
And hopefully not Dead.   Thank you.

--
Steve Beatty - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Visit / Nasa / Conspiracies
Date: 4 Oct 91 07:40:00 GMT

Steve Beatty writes:

 > Re: NASA's Project VISIT -
 >
 > I've made a possible connection between this alleged NASA
 > group and
 > the UFO phenomenon.  I have made inquiries via the internet
 > and will
 > post any positive results - if anyone is interested.
 >

Again VISIT is *not* a NASA project.  As I previously pointed
out, anyone who wants to find out about project visit should try
to get a copy of the 1980 MUFON Symposium Proceedings and they
can read all about it.  In fact VISIT was the host group for the
1980 MUFON Symposium in Clear Lake, Texas.  To believe that
VISIT is part of NASA is to believe that NASA hosted the 1980
MUFON Symposium.  Someone better tell Oberg about this!  :-)

Paul Faeder subsequently pointed out that Project VISIT is
discussed in _The UFO Encyclopedia_ by Margaret Sachs (1980).

Anyone who has trouble letting go of their belief in the rumor
that VISIT is a NASA project can simply write to John F.
Schuessler, the President of Project VISIT at this address:
                   P.O. Box 58485
                 Houston, TX  77058

In other words, forget about looking for "bum steers" on the
Internet, Steve.  You asked on ParaNet and you have been directed
to the best possible source on Project VISIT: its President.  If
you or anyone else still suspects that VISIT is really a NASA
project, why not ask *him*?

In the mean time please be advised that the echo guidelines
prohibit knowingly posting false information.

                            Best regards,
                                          --  John

--
John Burke - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Danny Brandenburg)
Subject: Re: Upcoming Shows
Date: 1 Oct 91 23:21:11 GMT

> Why .... I didn't get that impression.
>
> Regards,
> Kay

     Nor did I.  I felt Ron was very sympathetic to the UFO community.

      Danny Brandenburg


--
Danny Brandenburg - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]

 For administrative requests (subscriptions, back issues) send to:

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 To obtain back issues by anonymous ftp, connect to:

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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************
                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 485

                           Sunday, October 6th 1991

Today's Topics:

                               Re: Upcoming Shows
                                 Re: BeckleyCon
                         Re: Dave and Doug - The Latest
                Re: Uncritical Thinking About The Lazar Material
                         Richard Hoagland's Face On Mars
                         Re: VISIT / NASA / CONSPIRACIES
                                Dr. Fredrick Bell
                       Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                                Dr. Fredrick Bell
                                Re: Frederik Bell
                               Re: Ufology Quiz #2
                              Re: Tesla & Hungarian
                         Re: Dave and Doug - The Latest
                                 Upcoming Shows
                           Dave and Doug - The Latest
                                    Implants
                                   Bentwaters
                                     Goodies
                                 RAAF documents
                           Visit / Nasa / Conspiracies
                         Re: Visit / Nasa / Conspiracies
                                Dr. Fredrick Bell
                       Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                             Hudson Valley Messages
                                    Telephone
                                      Micap
                            KOA Weird Night 10/11&31
                       Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: Upcoming Shows
Date: 2 Oct 91 05:47:08 GMT


 JS> In a message to Jim Speiser <09-23-91 20:24> Kay Mclaughlin wrote:

KM>  Why? ..... I didn't get that impression.
KM>
KM>  Regards,
KM>  Kay
 JS>
 JS> Well, I'd have to run it again, but I thought he made some pretty dry
 JS> remarks to both sides. Especially when Stan Friedman brought up the
 JS> issue of his father's UFO sighting. He seemed especially testy at that
 JS> point.
 JS> Jim

I guess it's all in a persons point of view, my take on it was that the
original report was in the "National Enquirer" and Ron wanted to firmly
establish that.

As far as I know everyone from Oprah to Tom Selleck HATES the tabloids,
and I felt Ron was trying to make a point as far as the tabloids were
concerned.

He made a point of saying that if his father had seen a "UFO" he would
of been the first one that would have been told.

Implying to me that he had an interest in the subject, and if his father
HAD seen one he would have informed the one family member who WAS
interested.

As I said, that was just my impression.

Regards,
Kay

--
Kay Mclaughlin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: BeckleyCon
Date: 2 Oct 91 06:04:12 GMT


 LB> Hi Kay,
 LB>
 LB> It would be my pleasure to have you stay with me and go  to the
 LB> BeckleyCon.  As Jim Speiser says, "I wouldn't miss one for the world!"
 LB> Your origin line doesnn't give any clues as to your location:  where
 LB> do you hail from?
 LB> Linda
 LB>

I am presently living in Chantilly, VA (Fairfax County) about 15 miles
west of Washington D.C. I'm not a native, I was born in Warren, OH 1955;
moved to Miami, FL 1969; moved to Boston, MA 1973; relocated here two
years ago in 1989.

I did attend a few "Whole Earth Expo" type things when I lived in Bean
Town, but doesn't sound like it could touch the "Entertainment Level"
that "BeckleyCon" provides.

My husband is from Pensacola, and last June his siser got married, the
reception was at (yep, you guessed it!) the Holiday Inn in Gulf Breeze.
We spent two nights there before moving to the Parents house on Bayou
Grande after the party, wher we stayed for a week.

I dragged a lawn chair out to the beach (?) and spent the late evening
cooling my heels, drinking wine and star (?) gazing, saw no red lights!
Ah well... Guess I should have talked them into having the wedding THIS
month!

Type at cha soon,
Kay

--
Kay Mclaughlin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: Dave and Doug - The Latest
Date: 2 Oct 91 06:15:11 GMT


 CM> Personally, I wish that the UFO groups of the USAF, RAF, RCAF, RAAF,
 CM> and the (former) Soviet Air Defense Command could all sit down with
 CM> the Belgian Air Defense Command and get knee-walking drunk together.
 CM> Wouldn't it be wonderful if they just commiserated for 12 hours and
 CM> then decided to tell the truth???
 CM> In vino veritas,
 CM> Clark
Clark,

I LOVE it! True, this is how the interesting information gets passed around.

In potato passed out,
Kay

--
Kay Mclaughlin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: Uncritical Thinking About The Lazar Material
Date: 2 Oct 91 06:23:36 GMT


 MC> Yeah, but does it explain anything?

 Well, OH I don't know....... Cash/Lundrum?

 MC> I better quit before I lose all sense of reality.
 MC>
 MC> Hey - maybe this is how the National Enquirer comes up with their
 MC> stuff :-)

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it!

Kay

--
Kay Mclaughlin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Richard Hoagland's Face On Mars
Date: 4 Oct 91 07:26:00 GMT

In a message about Hoagland and his Mars noise, we also received the
following.


 > Mars has two carbon moons. The planet Mars does not contain this carbon.  The
 > moons appear to be asteriods that the Martians, using technology that is
 > available to us today, moved into Martian orbit and, apparently, to mine.
 > The two moons are in perfect circular orbits around Mars. Phobos is spiraling
 > inward toward Mars.  The density of Phobos is 1.95 which means that 30% is
 > missing, or hollowed out, or mined. Richard believes that the Soviets covered
 > up the truth of this by saying that it was a UFO that grabbed up their
 > spacecraft and by so doing, knew that the mainstream press would not touch
 > the story.  The Russians probably have close up photos of extraterrestrial
 >artifacts (a Martain monkey wrench?) and Marina Popovich went around the world
 > and spread false rumors to put the nail in the coffin in order to cover-up
 > the Truth.  The Phobos orbit is 20 Km off true circular, due to it's decaying
 > orbit.  If it were circular to begin with, it would have taken 217,000 years


If Hoagland would stop and take a breath and do some RESEARCH, and if he had
called me, then he would know that:

First, Dr. Marina Popovich DID NOT MENTION THE PHOBOS INCIDENT IN ANY OF HER
TALKS. This past spring, while covering an International UFO conf. in Tuscon,
I met Popovich while covering the event for UFO Magazine. I interviewed her
over a two day period, and happen to ask Popovich about rumors I heard about
the Phobos probe from a mentor of Hoaglands, Z. Sitchen. Sitchen wrote about
the incident in his book Genesis Revisited.

Marina Popovich was shocked, yes I did say shocked, that we in the west knew
something about this. And as an aside, what is Dickies problem with the idea
that maybe, notice I did say maybe, something could be out there now? He, with
his meglomanic attitude, blew it, yes I did say blew it, with Chuck Harder on
his For The People program, out of Whitesprings, Fl. a few weeks ago when he
attacked Harder on the air over the asteroid story that Harder had spoken
about during my guest appearence on his program. Furthermore, Hoagland did
something I consider unforgivable in accusing Popovich of being a KGB plant
here to spread disinfo on the Mars thing.

What is his proof? If we are going to start calling names, or better yet use
his thinking, then I or you or anyone could say the same damn thing about
Hoagland and Earl Torun. Torun does work for the Defense Mapping Agency, my
heavan, must be CIA, DIA, FBI, NSA, NRO, etc.  Take your pick. Hoagland is
fond of making grand pronouncements on Mars, Egypt, the Pyramids, and now is
claiming he deciphered the crop circles and they relate to the FACE.
Oh**please spare me, just how did he accomplish this? At any rate, I will be
answering him on the Harder program in reference to Popovich. I arranged her
appearance on Hard Copy, I broke the probe story with her, and last but not
least, when she returned to the States in June she brought the photo back here
that Phobos II took of the "object".  To run in UFO Magazine after we have
some anaylis run on it.

Don Ecker
UFO Magazine

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: VISIT / NASA / CONSPIRACIES
Date: 4 Oct 91 06:21:00 GMT

In a message to All <10-03-91 20:52> Steve Beatty wrote:
SB>  My focus is correlating live-TV testimony from an alleged abductee
SB>  that she was "regressed...a dozen times...by Dr. Richard Haines,
SB>  head of NASA Special Projects..." - it appeared last week on the

Only comment I can make is that I don't believe Dick Haines was EVER head of
NASA Special Projects, I think he was an environmental engineer.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 4 Oct 91 09:24:00 GMT


Andre Eichner sent me a message via netmail that clarifies his
interest in Dr. Frederick Bell.  He's looking for commentary &
reaction from the US, since Bell's an American.

Andre's English is pretty good, but he sent his full descripton
of Bell's claims & videotapes to me in German and asked me to
translate.  Here it is in English:

(400)   Sun 29 Sep 91 18:24     Rcvd: Tue 1 Oct 10:00
By: Andre Eichner, FidoNet Berlin *HST* (2:245/10)
To: Clark Matthews
Re: WRONG#.ZIP
St: Pvt  Rcvd
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Clark!

[stuff cut]

I'll write the following text in german, because I don't know some english
words in the text.

[translation]

I've seen a video of Dr. Fred Bell in which he speaks about the
technology of interplanetary spacecraft from the Pleides.  He
claims that he's been there himself.  Among other things, he
describes a procedure for hormonal alteration that is required
for people [to survive] who travel at faster-than-light speeds.

This procedure [of hormonal "healing"] described by Bell
resembles an ancient magical proceeding:  "Healers" can even
treat people unknown to them by using a photograph of the person
and directing their healing energy at it.  [Tr. Note:  Basically
a system of sympathetic magic -- fetishism, in other words --
like that practiced by most shamanist religions as well as
ancient and modern sorcerers, "Magikians", etc.  -- C.M.]

Bell describes a similar procedure [in the tape] from the
Pleides, with which he and his co-travelers "removed" themselves
from the Earth to the Pleides in less than 7 hours.  [Tr. Note:
The wording here is interesting; he's not talking about physical
travel to the Pleides, he's talking of a "removal" to the
Pleides, like an astral projection or OOBE-type experience.  --
C.M.]

Bell says that the USA and the so-called Grey aliens work
together and intend to ignite Jupiter and use it as a second Sun.
[Andre adds that whatever this may mean, he has it from a second
source in Gulf Breeze, FL  -- C.M.]  Moreover, Bell claims the
Grey aliens have concluded a treaty with the U.S., agreeing to an
exchange of weapons technology from the aliens for a certain
[implied: *large*] number of humans for genetic research.

Andre would be happy to hear comments, since Bell's an American.

---[translation ends]----------------------------------------------

Here's the original text:


Ich habe ein Video von Dr. Fred Bell gesehen, indem er ber die Technologie
interplanetarischer Raumschiffe von den Plejaden spricht. Er behauptet, selbst
dort gewesen zu sein. Er spricht unter anderem ueber eine, fr den Menschen
ntige Hormonumstellung fr berlichtgeschwindigkeit. Das Verfahren, was er
dort erklrt hnelt einem alten Magischen Verfahren: Heiler knnen eine ihnen
unbekannte Person heilen, indem sie ihr Photoals Zielvorgabe fr ihre
Heilungsenergie verwenden. Fred Bell erklrt ein hnliches Verfahren von den
Plejaden, mit dem sie in weniger als 7 Stunden (seven hours!) die Entfernung
Erde ->Plejaden zurcklegen.
F.Bell sagt, das die USA mit den sog. GRAUEN (was auch immer das sein mag, ich
habe da noch eine andere Quelle: Eine Sendung von Gulf Breeze, in der die
Grauen ebenfalls genannt werden) zusammenarbeiten und vorhaben, den Jupiter
anzuznden um eine 2. Sonne entstehen zu lassen. Sie haben mit den Grauen ein
Abkommen getroffen, das sie den USA Waffentechnologie geben und dafr eine
bestimmte Menge Menschen fr Genetische Versuche bekommen.
Ich wrde mich freuen, Deinen Kommentar dazu zu hhren. brigends ist Bell
selbst Amerikaner.

cheers
   Andre
PS: Du kannst das ja bersetzen und in INFO.PARANET setzen.


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Sudduth)
Subject: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 4 Oct 91 13:40:00 GMT

> > "Wallace and the men with him walked around the object and noticed an
> > interesting effect. Their own shadows were cast onto the object,
> > probably by the bright "light-alls" in the field.  Not only did their
> > shadows bend upwards at the head, but as they walked and the stopped,
> > the shadows would appear to advance one pace more and then stop."
> >         -Clear Intent  by Lawrence Fawcett and Barry Greenwood
> >          page 216 about the Rendlesham Forest case.
>
>OK, gotcha. Art Wallace, by the way, is Larry Warren. Somehow
>the observation doesn't surprise me, coming from him.
>
>Jim

I must be missing something.  Why doesn't it suprise you coming from
him???????   I don't get it.

Don Sudduth

--
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From: [e-mail] (Don Sudduth)
Subject: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 4 Oct 91 13:49:00 GMT

Dr. Bell may sincerely beleive what he says.  However, when are
people going to give up on the Pleiadians?  The whole thing is the
biggest crock of BS in UFology!!  (Of course, you can pay $1000 a
volume for the Message from Pleiades books that have a bunch of very
fuzzy photographs).

I'm sorry Clark.  This is not directed at you.

Mad about the Pleiadian hoax,
     -Don Sudduth
--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Frederik Bell
Date: 4 Oct 91 12:09:00 GMT

JS> > Howdy, Andre!  Wie geht's Ihnen?  Hoffentlich wird der Berliner Luft ein
JS> > bisschen reiner?

Nein, nein, nein!  Das ist einen Fliegenden Berliner.

Let's get our confections straight!  Maybe you're thinking of John Kennedy's
famous gaffe at the Berlin Wall?  "Ich bin ein Berliner!"  "I'm a
cream-covered jellyroll!"

[That's what the wife said ... well, everyone else, anyway.  nyuk, nyuk,
nyuk]

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Ufology Quiz #2
Date: 4 Oct 91 12:13:00 GMT

LB>You're a genius!  Das ist gut!  And you are CORRECT!  It


Natuerlich, mein Schatz.  Aber ein Wunderkind?  Glaube nicht -- vielleicht
ein Unterwunderkind?

Actually I get Madame Blavatsky to write this stuff for me.

[Leesen to dem, dey arrrre de children ....]


Clark

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Tesla & Hungarian
Date: 4 Oct 91 12:26:00 GMT

LB>dinosaur
LB>egg.  Also something very rare:  dinosaaur lips!

Dinosaur eggs:  Diplodocus -- $150
                Sauropod   --  225  (we choose)
                           --  325  (select group)
                Tyrannosaur -  450  (occasional stock)
                               125  (uncandled!  buy at your own risk!!)

Onyx Egg Cups         Big  --   35
                   Bigger  --   50
              Floor Model  --   75


Dinosaur Lips:   Special Order Only -- State Preference
                 Removed by laser -- shipped in dry ice for freshness
                 Allow 2 weeks for shipment

(Delivered direct from the Devonian to U, through your bedroom window by
quiet little grey critters!)


Add 5% for shipping and applicable local tax.

10% extra west of Gondwanaland.

Best,
  Clark

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Dave and Doug - The Latest
Date: 4 Oct 91 12:28:00 GMT

KM>I LOVE it! True, this is how the interesting information
KM>gets passed around.
KM>
KM>In potato passed out,
KM>Kay


hehehehehe.  This spud's for you!

Cheers,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Upcoming Shows
Date: 4 Oct 91 15:45:00 GMT


 > I guess it's all in a persons point of view, my take on it was that the
 > original report was in the "National Enquirer" and Ron wanted to firmly
 > establish that.

 > As far as I know everyone from Oprah to Tom Selleck HATES the tabloids,
 > and I felt Ron was trying to make a point as far as the tabloids were
 > concerned.

 > He made a point of saying that if his father had seen a "UFO" he would
 > of been the first one that would have been told.

 > Implying to me that he had an interest in the subject, and if his father
 > HAD seen one he would have informed the one family member who WAS
 > interested.

 > As I said, that was just my impression.

You could be right, I just detected a few notes of condescension.


I *STILL* want to know what that video was at the beginning of the first part,
though!

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Dave and Doug - The Latest
Date: 4 Oct 91 15:48:00 GMT


 > In potato passed out,

   ^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^

"In spudus vaporum"?

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Implants
Date: 3 Oct 91 02:44:00 GMT

To:Sheldon Wernikoff
Thanks for your latest reply. If you will post an address for me I
will airmail you a copy of the Pritchard paper, as I understand the
Treat 2 proceedings still have not been released.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Bentwaters
Date: 3 Oct 91 02:45:00 GMT

Thanks for your offer of further info on this. Jenny Randles was over
here in Australia last month and she stated that new evidence had
suggested there was more to Bentwaters than she had previously
believed. I await details with interest.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Goodies
Date: 3 Oct 91 02:47:00 GMT

Thanks for your airmail despatch. I will await its receipt with
interest.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: RAAF documents
Date: 3 Oct 91 02:48:00 GMT

Clark, I never found out if you received those Australian RAAF
documents I sent over some months ago. Could you please advise if they
turned up your end, thanks?

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Visit / Nasa / Conspiracies
Date: 5 Oct 91 20:40:00 GMT


 > Again VISIT is *not* a NASA project.  As I previously pointed out,
 > anyone who wants to find out about project visit should try to get a
 > copy of the 1980 MUFON Symposium Proceedings and they can read all about
 > it.  In fact VISIT was the host group for the 1980 MUFON Symposium in
 > Clear Lake, Texas.  To believe that VISIT is part of NASA is to believe
 > that NASA hosted the 1980 MUFON Symposium.  Someone better tell Oberg
 > about this!  :-)

I am checking on this John.  According to a NASA source that I have, VISIT may
have been a real NASA project.  He is checking on this for me and will let me
know.  He was familiar with the term and indicated that he had heard something
about it a while back.

I will post the results.

Mike

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Visit / Nasa / Conspiracies
Date: 5 Oct 91 20:44:00 GMT


 > Only comment I can make is that I don't believe Dick Haines was EVER
 > head of NASA Special Projects, I think he was an environmental engineer.

According to Jerry Clark's UFOs in the 1980s, I quote regarding Haines,
"Between 1964 and 1988 he worked in varying capacities as  a scientist
employed at the NASA-Ames Research Center at Moffett Field in California.
When he retired from government service in 1988, he was chief of the Space
Human Factors Office at NASA-Ames.  Currently he is a research scientist for
the Research Institute for Advanced Computer Science, at Ames Research
Center."  It is also noted that he has a Ph.D. in experimental psychology and
physiology.

Jim, would you call him and clarify what this Space Human Factors Office is
and about this other business?

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 6 Oct 91 01:18:00 GMT

Hi Clark!

I saw an ad for some conference in California which contained the
assertion that Fred Bell claims to be a nuclear physicist.
Curiously, in the book _The Fellowship_ by Brad Steiger (one of
the WORST books I've ever read, BTW) which is written largely
about Fred Bell, he is described as a Chiropractor who used to
walk around with a pyramid on his head.  So how does one make the
transition from Chiropractor to nuclear physicist?  Only Semjase
knows for sure!  :-)
                                   --  John

--
John Burke - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 5 Oct 91 18:42:00 GMT


 >>
 >>OK, gotcha. Art Wallace, by the way, is Larry Warren. Somehow
 >>the observation doesn't surprise me, coming from him.
 >>
 >>Jim
 >
 > I must be missing something.  Why doesn't it suprise you coming from
 > him???????   I don't get it.
 >

Larry is a very nice, very charming man, who seems as credible as your Aunt
Clara, and yet what he says is not only incredible, no one who has checked into
his story has been able to verify a single thing he says. Col. Halt claims that
Warren wasn't even present at the time of the sightings! And Warren's story is
very inconsistent between tellings. Just about a month ago, I overheard him
asking John Burroughs what Halt and Col. Gordon Williams look like. So how
could he have placed Williams at the scene?

For now, I think it would be useful to hold Warren's story in abeyance until
we can get more attention focused on the case itself. After it has become
generally acknowledged that something strange did happen there, perhaps we can
look into some of the stranger allegations.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Hudson Valley Messages
Date: 5 Oct 91 18:56:00 GMT

I have a whole bunch more messages to cross-post from the Science echo
regarding the Hudson Valley UFO, but I have been asked not to do so unless
Maury Markowitz receives confirmation that his last batch of responses to
ParaNet people were posted here. Could someone netmail him at 250/712 and
confirm that his messages did appear here?

The conversation has taken an interesting turn, and another respected member of
the echo has joined in. I believe I am zeroing in on the basic problem of why
Science - or rather, some scientists - cast a jaundiced eye on Ufology. I'm
anxious to post the remaining messages here in order to get some feedback,
especially from those of you with degrees in science. The message I am now
getting from them is that its not good enough that we have an observed anomaly,
we now have to PROVE to Science that this anomaly is unidentified AND
unidentifiable, by making highly structured and controlled scientific
measurements. I thought that was THEIR job....We can't do it because we don't
have the money, we don't have the money because we can't get the funding, we
won't get the funding until we prove that we have an anomaly to investigate,
and we can't prove that we have an anomaly until we do scientific testing on
it, which we don't have the money for....are we at an impasse?


Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Telephone
Date: 5 Oct 91 18:58:00 GMT

Gerry:

Sorry I haven't called, I DID receive your phone number and will get to you
ASAP. Just been real busy, but I DO want to talk...

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Micap
Date: 6 Oct 91 11:40:00 GMT

Thanks for the message defining MICAP.  I hope this'll clarify it to
those who werpuzzled or misunderstood the acronym.
                                        ==Peggy==
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: KOA Weird Night 10/11&31
Date: 6 Oct 91 12:23:00 GMT

KOA radio in Denver (850 on the AM dial) will have two of the
ever-popular "Weird Night" programs this month.  I don't have the
line-up yet, but the dates will be:
        October 11 (midnight to 5a.m. -- Thurs. night to Fri. morning)
        October 31 (same time) special Hallowe'en show.
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 6 Oct 91 17:25:00 GMT


 > Larry is a very nice, very charming man, who seems as credible as your
 > Aunt Clara, and yet what he says is not only incredible, no one who has
 > checked into his story has been able to verify a single thing he says.
 > Col. Halt claims that Warren wasn't even present at the time of the
 > sightings! And Warren's story is very inconsistent between tellings.
 > Just about a month ago, I overheard him asking John Burroughs what Halt
 > and Col. Gordon Williams look like. So how could he have placed Williams
 > at the scene?

This is fine, but it doesn't answer the question of how Larry Warren knows
some of the more intimate details about what happened there, considering that
the coverup was almost immediate.  That brings us to two questions: 1)  Is
Halt covering up Warren's real involvement because Warren really knows and was
not as controllable as the others, or 2)  Is Warren a deliberate disinformant
provided by the "control group" to further confuse this issue?  Burroughs did
admit that Warren was in a flight wing which did in fact go out to the area on
the second day.   Warren seems to be too motivated by other than a desire to
acquire profit over 10 years after the fact, to be discounted or held in
abeyance.  Instead, I think that whatever Warren says should be investigated
as vigorously as Burroughs.

 > For now, I think it would be useful to hold Warren's story in abeyance
 > until we can get more attention focused on the case itself. After it has
 > become generally acknowledged that something strange did happen there,
 > perhaps we can look into some of the stranger allegations.

If Warren tells a story that is "stranger," perhaps he should be the primary
witness to this case?

For now, let's discuss what it is about Larry Warren that Fawcett/Greenwood
found so disturbing, and any others who feels that Warren should be placed on
hold.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]

 For administrative requests (subscriptions, back issues) send to:

UUCP            {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara-request
DOMAIN          [e-mail]
 To obtain back issues by anonymous ftp, connect to:

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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 486

                           Tuesday, October 8th 1991

Today's Topics:

                              Message to Mike Dobbs
                              Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
                      Request for Info Re: Indiana Sightings
                 timeshifting as a cause of various phenomena...
                                    Implants
                             Equinox on Crop Circles
                                     Fatima
                                   Dein Deutch
                             Clark's New Business...
                     Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
                             Did you get my message
                                Dr. Fredrick Bell

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ncar!doc.imperial.ac.uk!aixssc.ibm.co.uk!rob
Subject: Message to Mike Dobbs
Date: 6 Oct 91 19:32:54 GMT

From: Robert Trevelyan <[e-mail]>

Mike,
 Sorry that you haven't received my replies to date. I know we have
 had some enormous problems with our mail feed so I guess you did
 not receive any of the previous messages. It is strange I can get
 mail to some areas and not to others. Anyway the images were great
 and thanks for doing them. You made a not so good photo look a hell
 of a lot better. I will copy the Today articles for you and mail them
 to you within the next few days. Would you be interested scanning
 some 1990 and a few 1991 colour photos of pictograms etc. I have
 a few photos of this years on print but most or on slide which I may
 get transfered. Thanks again Mike and just to be sure you get this I
 will cross-post this to ParaNet as I am pretty sure I can get mail
 to that. Be in touch
+
+Hi Robert,
+ I'm wondering if you got the GIFs of your pictures I sent a couple
+weeks ago now.  I'm sure you are very busy with all that is going on.
+I appreciate the updates you have been posting on ParaNet.
+
+--------
+  Mike Dobbs    [phone]         /    Internet: [e-mail]
+  Hewlett-Packard Co.                 /     HPDesk: Mike Dobbs/HP5400/AL
+  Vancouver Division  (R&D Lab)      /      Phone: [phone]
+  P.O. Box 8906                     /       FAX:   [phone]
+  Vancouver, WA  98668-8906        /
+
+


--
Robert Trevelyan   UKnet: [e-mail]
AIX Communications    VNET: TREVELR at BASVM2
     Voice: [phone]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 6 Oct 91 10:30:00 GMT

DS>Mad about the Pleiadian hoax,
DS>     -Don Sudduth


Hi Don -- I don't believe it either, but Andre asked me to translate and I
did.  I also sent him a reaction, as he asked at the end of his post.
That's in German, too, but briefly it says that the whole thing is highly
suspect and players in the Pleidian story aren't to be trusted.  Hmmm, maybe
I'd better think about putting my comments into English so folks don't think
I subscribe to this stuff...

Ordinarily I relish an opportunity to brush up on my German -- but maybe I
better dust off my Brechtian "Distancing Devices" if I plan to continue?
:-)

With you 100% in your comments.

Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!crdec7.apgea.army.mil!jlfields
Subject:  Request for Info Re: Indiana Sightings
Date: 7 Oct 91 17:35:12 GMT

From: 'Janet L. Fields' <[e-mail]>

 I'll be travelling to Indiana this week & wonder if anyone has
information on UFO sightings there?  I've heard there have been sightings
at a place called Lucky Point & at Corydon, IN.  As well as other locations
in the state.  At Lucky Point & at Corydon there were sightings of a
triangular-shaped craft that hovered.  Does anyone have any information on
these sightings or on the other locations?   I understand Michael White has
done some shows on UFOs seen locally.  Has anyone seen these?
 I'll be in Bloomington, IN, & would like to go to some nearby locations.
I leave this Thurs. afternoon to stay a few days.  And will be going back
around Christmas.  Thanks for any help.
    Janet F.   [e-mail]





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!UNHH.UNH.EDU!K_MACARTHUR1
Subject: timeshifting as a cause of various phenomena...
Date: 7 Oct 91 23:13:02 GMT

From: [e-mail]

 In response to Clarke Mathews posting;

 If time was being manipulated on a localized volume of space to achieve
certain effects (bending light, overcoming inertia, etc.), then the rest of the
environment feels those effects.   In the invisibility example, to bend light
rays from behind an object around it, the light has to encounter intense gravit-
ational fields.    If the light does indeed bend, then the gravity gradient is
somewhat like what you would see near a black hole, and the craft would only be
invisible for the fraction of a second it took to collapse the earth into its
general location.  If the timeshifting was truly localized, and nothing outside
of a certain volume was affected, I would think that everything within that
volume would be hidden from view, like an event horizon or something.  I agree
that nobody is expert on this sort of thing (that I know of, anyway), so I may
be just speculating about fiction.    If the timeshifting wasn't within a
sharp boundary, but a gradual area effect, you could think of the strange things
you might see coming from it.    Visible light emitted would shift up into and
beyond the blue end of the spectrum if the figures inside the area sped up, and
may even shift as far as x and gamma rays if the rate was fast enough.
Conversely, if the field was being used to slow down the time passing inside,
any light emitted would sink beyond the infrared, making the field appear as a
cold, black region.  Beings inside would need to protect against the opposite
effects from this side.   If they slow down relative to us, we are glowing in
the higher frequencies (microwave,x,gamma).   And if they radiate, we look like
cold sub-infra red backround (when they speed up with respect to us).  If such
a thing were possible, I can't speculate how its effects would not be felt in
the surrounding environment.   That doesn't mean it wouldn't, only that more
data needs to be found.   Anyone with a more solid understanding of space-time
physics care to comment?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Korac MacArthur     UNH Cosmic Ray Research
Programmer/Technician/Questioner of Authority
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Implants
Date: 8 Oct 91 05:04:00 GMT

Thanks for the most generous offer Keith, but I believe David Webb
is going to mail me a copy of Pritchard's Treat II paper. He also
supplied me with a mailing address so that I might correspond with
him directly. If I receive any new information, I'll be sure to
post it here in this forum. I shall also let you know what I think
of Pritchard's opinions. For your files, my mailing address
follows:

Sheldon Wernikoff
9200 Niles Center Road
Skokie, IL 60076-1548
USA

I am most intersted in reading your article "UFO abductees and contactees:
psychopathology or fantasy proneness?" Will you be posting that here?
If not, would you please mail me a copy, and I'll reimburse you for costs
incurred.

Thanks again,

-= Sheldon =-

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!doc.imperial.ac.uk!aixssc.ibm.co.uk!rob
Subject: Equinox on Crop Circles
Date: 8 Oct 91 07:36:17 GMT

From: Robert Trevelyan <[e-mail]>


Hi,
 I guess this may only be relevant to viewers in the UK but anyway.
 On October 27th on BBC2 the program Equinox will be shown on
 the subject of Crop Circles. This includes a good overview of
 the 1991 formations etc. and includes interviews with CCCS researchers.
 As of today it is scheduled to happen but who knows.
 Pat D and Colin A were due to be on the Wogan show
 and that got cancelled about a week before.
 I think the Equinox program was filmed well before the D+D
 saga so I don't expect to here anything about that.
 To recap its at 7pm on 27th October 1991 on BBC2.
 Lets hope it happens.
Regards, Robert
--
Robert Trevelyan   UKnet: [e-mail]
AIX Communications    VNET: TREVELR at BASVM2
     Voice: [phone]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Fatima
Date: 6 Oct 91 02:44:31 GMT

Hi Greg,

Thanks for post on Fatima prophecy.  I'm not impressed by it.  I think most of
us could have guessed such a prophecy, altho not the year.  I wonder if George
Bush knew of this prophecy and that's why (if, supposedly Saddam is "Satan")
George is making Saddam let us look into his weapons capabilities. Interesting
idea, eh?  What world power do you think could lease such devastation in 1993?
 Any ideas?

Best,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Dein Deutch
Date: 6 Oct 91 03:03:31 GMT

Hiya Clark,

You said :

 > Actually I get Madame Blavatsky to write this stuff for me.

Well, your German translation was "sehr gut."  I'll be posting another ufology
quiz and we'll see how you do!

Auf weidersehen.

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Clark's New Business...
Date: 6 Oct 91 03:08:56 GMT

Hi Clark,

Thanks for the lastest "Clark's Catalog of Devonian Delicacies."

 > Dinosaur eggs:  Diplodocus -- $150
 >                 Sauropod   --  225  (we choose)
 >                            --  325  (select group)
 >                 Tyrannosaur -  450  (occasional stock)
 >                                125  (uncandled!  buy at your own
 > risk!!)
 >
 > Onyx Egg Cups         Big  --   35
 >                    Bigger  --   50
 >               Floor Model  --   75

etc.    etc.

Good business, actually...could sell to schools, universities, private
collectors...

<GRIN>

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Date: 7 Oct 91 14:40:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <10-06-91 10:25> Michael Corbin wrote:

MC>  This is fine, but it doesn't answer the question of how Larry Warren
MC>  knows some of the more intimate details about what happened there,
MC>  considering that the coverup was almost immediate.  That brings us to

Apparently you're privvy to more info about Larry than I am. What inimate
details is he aware of that he couldn't have simply made up?

MC>  two questions: 1)  Is Halt covering up Warren's real involvement
MC>  because Warren really knows and was not as controllable as the
MC>  others, or 2)  Is Warren a deliberate disinformant provided by the
MC>  "control group" to further confuse this issue?  Burroughs did admit

I think 2 is more likely. If someone is not "controllable", then they will
not only report their story, they will report any attempts to control them.
So far Warren hasn't made any allegations to that effect, aside from an
interrogation.

MC>  that Warren was in a flight wing which did in fact go out to the area
MC>  on the second day.   Warren seems to be too motivated by other than a

Hadn't heard that. Will confirm with John.

MC>  desire to acquire profit over 10 years after the fact, to be
MC>  discounted or held in abeyance.  Instead, I think that whatever
MC>  Warren says should be investigated as vigorously as Burroughs.

As I say, attempts at investigation Warren's story have already been made,
and have come up empty-handed. This can be confirmed with Ben Jamieson, a
mathematician who has been following this story for years.

MC>  If Warren tells a story that is "stranger," perhaps he should be the
MC>  primary witness to this case?

I don't think that necessarily follows. In any case, I don't think he should
be ignored, just kept on the back burner until we have a more opportune
moment...say, if a grant from the FUND should ever afford us a chance to
delve into this thing in more detail. Until then, I think we should
concentrate our limited resources on that part of the story that is most
likely to yield results at the present.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!doc.imperial.ac.uk!aixssc.ibm.co.uk!rob
Subject: Did you get my message
Date: 8 Oct 91 09:32:06 GMT

From: Robert Trevelyan <[e-mail]>


Linda,
 I am not sure if I have managed to get a note to your Internet
 address so I thought I'd post here as well. I guess a lot of
 people think I am ignorant for not replying to their messages
 but I have and I think they may be stuck in our mail feed
 somewhere.Anyway, thanks for the offer of the Time article,
 I would love a copy. Can I return the compliment?
 Maybe the Today articles on Doug and Dave.

Thanks again, Robert

PS. my work address is probably easier.

IBM United Kingdom
Mountbatten House
Basing View
Basingstoke
Hampshire
RG21 1EJ
Mailpoint MH2B7

--
Robert Trevelyan   UKnet: [e-mail]
AIX Communications    VNET: TREVELR at BASVM2
     Voice: [phone]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 7 Oct 91 20:16:00 GMT


 > I saw an ad for some conference in California which
 > contained the assertion that Fred Bell claims to be a
 > nuclear physicist.

One of the things that's alarming is how much credibility these
claims can have overseas.  Bell's claims clearly made quite an
impression on Andre in Germany.  And I recall a similar interest
in Cooper's claims from the folks in Australia -- and let's not
forget the people who went AWOL from Germany to go to Gulf
Breeze.

 > Curiously, in the book _The Fellowship_
 > by Brad Steiger (one of the WORST books I've ever read,
 > BTW) which is written largely about Fred Bell, he is
 > described as a Chiropractor who used to walk around with a
 > pyramid on his head.

Hehehe.  Sounds pretty flaky.  Maybe he needs an adjustment???
:-)

Did you know that Bell's namesake, Alexander Graham Bell, used
to mediate inside a copper pyramid in his home in Nova Scotia?
He had a secretary take notes of his visions -- and the notes
remain sealed to this day.  The Bell family still lives in the
house there, but it was open to the public for many years (now
closed), and the copper pyramid was there for all to see.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]

 For administrative requests (subscriptions, back issues) send to:

UUCP            {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara-request
DOMAIN          [e-mail]
 To obtain back issues by anonymous ftp, connect to:

DOMAIN          ftp.uiowa.edu (directory /archives/paranet)

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 487

                          Thursday, October 10th 1991

Today's Topics:

                             Phobos/Deimos Densities
                              Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
                                   Re: (none)
                             Re: Ham Radio Voiceover
                            Re: Kansas disappearances
                                    Re: Micap
                         Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
                                     (none)
                                  Doug and Dave
                                     Belgium
                                     (none)
                                     Article
                             Phobos/Deimos Densities
                                     Belgium
                                Mail mail mail...
                                     Belgium
                                    Re: Micap
                                Re: ogden object
                                   Dein Deutch
                             Clark's New Business...
                                timeshifting UFOs
                             Bentwaters, timeshifts
                                  Dan Casolaro
                                Mail Mail Mail...
                                Re: Ogden Object

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ncar!ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Phobos/Deimos Densities
Date: 8 Oct 91 20:00:51 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

There was recently a quote from R. Hoagland stating that the moons
of Mars are hollow.  I decided to inquire of them who knbow their
planetary astronomy stuff, and received the following message from
Dr. VanFlandern on CI$.  I have some other files by this same
scientist if anyone is interested - he has put forward some
alternative cosmological ideas which may interest paranet subscribers.

#: 92083 S4/The Solar System
    08-Oct-91  00:07:49
Sb: #92057-Martian Moons
Fm: Tom VanFlandern/DC 71107,2320
To: Paul Carr 72537,2312

Paul,
       Phobos:  mass = 9.5 x 10^18 grams;  mean radius = 1.2 x 10^6
centimeters;  mean density = 1.3 g/cc.

       Deimos:  mass = 2.0 x 10^18 grams;  mean radius = 7.5 x 10^5
centimeters;  mean density = 1.1 g/cc.

       [These figures from 'The Planetary System', publication AS419 of the
Astronomical Society of the Pacific.]

       The shapes are very irregular; and more careful solutions using actual
shapes suggest slightly higher mean density figures.  The densities are
believed to be only about half those of normal asteroids because these moons
were apparently struck so violently in an ancient collision that they were
literally blown apart.  The major fragments then fell back in place under the
force of the moons' own gravity, but were then less densely packed.  A huge
crater and stress fractures ('grooves') visible on Phobos bear witness to this
history.

       Although these densities are low, they are not at all extraordinary.
Some icy planetary moons in the outer solar system, and the planet Saturn
itself, have lower densities.  There is no suggestion of 'hollowness' in these
figures.

       There is an old theory that Phobos might be 'hollow' or artificial. It
was based in part on the high rate of tidal acceleration of Phobos in its
orbit, the origin of which is now better understood from tidal theory than it
was earlier in this century.  It was also based on a few old observations of
questionable accuracy which tended to suggest that the acceleration of Phobos
in its orbit had changed since its discovery, which could presumably only
happen if it was hollow or artificial and had been struck or propelled.  It is
now widely believed that those very old observations had systematic errors in
them, since the moons were barely visible at all in the glare of Martian light.
-|Tom|-


--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 9 Oct 91 05:24:18 GMT

Hi John!

Yes, I've read a bit about old Fred Bell, too.  He makes all kinds of
outlandish claims:  that he began his science career at age 9 (it probably was
an ANT FARM!); that he worked with Werner von Braun.  I think the guy is a
sleeze bag.  IMHO!   IMHO!!

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: 6 Oct 91 08:43:50 GMT

Did you know, ncar!ecn. our man Lush said to All on 03 Oct 91 11:53:58

 n> But her third prediction was so horrifying that Lucia kept it to
 n> herself until the Vatican finally ordered her to put it on paper
 n> and swore her to secrecy in 1943.

And that is where it should have stayed.  To even suggest that 'an
image' of Virgin Mary would make ANY reference to the existence or
acceptence of authority to any one or thing called, 'Satan' is beyond
credible belief.  It condemns the visioner to scorn and ridicule,
except for those promoting such nonsense.  They eat it up.

 n> 'A great plague will befall mankind in 1993.  Nowhere in the world
 n> will there be order, and Satan will rule the highest places,
 n> determining the way of things.

   << Laughing and spraying bits of oreo cookie over monitor. >>

 n> 'Satan will even succeed in asserting himself at the top of the church.
 n> 'He will succeed in seducing the spirits of the great scientists who
 n> invent arms, with which it will be possible to destroy a very large
 n> part of humanity in a few minutes.

Gee..isn't he a little late?  We've had such things for decades!

 n> 'Satan will walk in their midst, and in Rome there will be great
 n> changes. The church will be darkened, and the world will be shaking
 n> with terror.
 n> 'A huge war will erupt.  Fire and smoke will fall down from the sky.

Aren't they mixing their Hopi predictions up a bit too much?

 n> 'The waters of the ocean will become mist, and the foam will rise to
 n> tremendous heights and everyone will drown.
 n> the crazed and the followers of Satan, who will then and only then
 n> rule the world.
 n>
 n> 'At the last, those who survive will at every chance newly proclaim
 n> God and His glory and they will serve Him as when the world was
 n> not so perverted.

Methinks the young 'seer' has been into the cooking sherry with that one!
If that is the future of our world...PLEASE LET ME PERISH, TOO!

 n> The only comment I would add is that if one lived in Iraq right now,
 n> one might think that this prediction had already come true.

And I predict in '93, you and I and the rest will be around to have a good
laugh over this one.  Isn't it amazing how such uhhh, major prophesies always
seem to be 'revealed' only a couple of years ahead of the event?  ;-)



--
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: Ham Radio Voiceover
Date: 6 Oct 91 08:48:38 GMT

Did you know, ncar!apple.com!well!gmz said to All on 02 Oct 91 12:15:55

 n> Yes, anyone (depending on license class) can jump in and
 n> transmit over the NASA broadcast.  Whether or not their
 n> transmission will be heard at any given receiving point;
 n> whether it will sound like the original transmission;

License Class would not be an issue...since it would be ILLEGAL in any
respect to do such willful interferring.




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From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: Kansas disappearances
Date: 4 Oct 91 06:04:14 GMT


 JS> I tend to avoid tabloid television, so I didn't see that story.

Oh, I love tabloid television!

Joke Question: What do you call a woman who pays more attention to her
computer than her husband?

Joke Answer: An Infomaniac!

Actually I just happened to be home that afternoon, I'm ususally at work
when it comes on.

I truly believe that if more people watched this stuff there would be
less divorce. If people watched, they would say "Gee my problems aren't
so bad!"

But this is off topic. (Hey what are those bright lights in the east
when I'm waking up! Ah shucks, jes, two planets.)

Regards,
K

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From: [e-mail] (Bruce Johnson)
Subject: Re: Micap
Date: 6 Oct 91 23:08:00 GMT


 MC> Have your friend netmail me at 104/422 in Fidonet.  I will
 MC> be happy to get him an application and get him hooked in.
 MC>
 MC> Thanks,
 MC>
 MC> Mike
Mike, I am sorry to say, Allen Roberts does Not have access to FIDO.
He runs GT power COMM software and is on a different net, he says.
Does this mean he can't (sob) be on Paranet?? <g>

Perhaps I can receive something for him by FAX or he can phone, or
something. I am really kind of new to all this FIDO/net stuff.
--
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From: [e-mail] (Kurt Lochner)
Subject: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Date: 4 Oct 91 11:40:08 GMT


   To: ncar!wrs.com!davidj
   Date: 4 Oct 91

In the following, I must add....
 >
 > In order to completely realize the possible truth of
 > the material presented
 > in his discussions, you should understand tetrahedral
 > geometry and it's
 -------------------abridged for sanity------------
 > addition, 12 is a fundamental aspect of this system.
 > Richard Hoagland used
 > two universal constants and their ratio, in order to
 > substantiate his claims.
 > These two numbers are pi (3.14) and e, the base of
 > natural logarithms
 > (2.72), and the resulting ratio: e/pi ~= 0.865.

 It's 2.718281828 with 12 mantissa points, so bear with me,
I do have a very sensible point to make with this figure.
 >
 > For instance. it you take the slope of the Great
 > Pyramid in Egypt, and
 > divide it by the 60 degrees, it's top angle, you get
 > 0.865.  This is

No, that pyramid has a slope of 51.85, with the .85
from the 51 minutes (eg 51/60 = 0.85), thus 51.85/60
is equal to 0.8641666667, close but wait, there's more.

 > is equivalent to 687 Earth days. The Fibonacci spiral is a tetrahedral
 > mathematic.  Follow the numbers and follow the logic.....
 >
I can't address that right now, we'll have to hit the
library at the college for that particular item.

> The Egyptian Pyramids are made of  calcium carbonate which has an internal
> structure that is exactly like the structure of the pyramid (in Egypt) itself.

This holds some promise, I'll talk to the physical chemist
about this one.  I can browse his books to verify this.
 >
 > The land forms found on Mars are NOT those done by Nature.  The angles formed
 > by the pyramids are impossible for nature to create.

Whoa! What about the calcium carbonate molecules just
mentioned after the 20000 books written?  I'm purposely
trying to dump on this premise as I have read Sitchen's
book, "The Twelfth Planet", and found it extremely
interesting.

 > There are too many variations on the e/pi constant.  Even the latitude on
 > Mars where the city/ face/pyramid are found is a function of e/pi.

This is quite a bit like Bruce Cathey's geomancy, which I
also find to make no mathematical "sense" and I attribute
much of this approach to the truncation/rounding-off errors
that one might not suspect of hand-held calculators.  While
the numbers appear "close enough for government work", I do
not accept the accuracy of such equipment for my own work,
which includes engineering and physics homework of the last
eight years of my life.

 > He spent several hours creating an exquisite mathematical trail showing that
 > the pyramid on Mars, the pyramid at Gizeh and, co-equivalently, the Sphinx in
 > Egypt, are all more than 200,000 years old.  More specifically, about 217,000
 > +/-  15,000 years.

No doubt, it does appear close, I will admit, though I would
expect more of a predominance of irrational numbers such as
the square root of two to "go along with" pi, e and the
like.

 > It is impossible for me to go into all the details,

Yeah, I would write the same, guess I'll have to get the
tapes of this event so that everyone can enjoy reading a
"eating my words now" post from this humble physicist.

 > Carl Sagan and Richard Hoagland used to be friends.  In public, Sagan says
 > that this information is nonsense, but in private, he says something quite
 > different.
 >
That's because Sagan has championed the cause of Science as
a national goal of literacy.  While that is to be admired in
itself, Carl is something of an embarrassment to the
scientific community for his lack of scientific/educational
accumen with the phrase "billions and billions".

 > Richard indicated that he will read anything that will bring him even 1
 > data point closer to the Truth.
 >
Good!  Send him this post, and that I would like to
congratulate the both of you for such a thought provoking
effort to examine some of the possibilities.

 >  *  COMING NEXT:  My discussions with Wendelle Stevens
 > regarding Grey        *
 >  *         aliens from the Reticulum Star cluster and
 > his playing of a       *
 >  *         cassette tape of the sounds of one of their
 > space ships.          *
 >
Might I tell you about the sound being somewhat easily
fabricated on a polyphonic sampling keyboard?
Gas Music from Jupiter, indeed!

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: (none)
Date: 6 Oct 91 05:49:00 GMT


 >   rule the world.
 >   'At the last, those who survive will at every chance newly
 > proclaim  God and His glory and they will serve Him as when the world
 > was not so perverted.

That's fine but can anyone tell me why is God so concerened with THIS
planet and wants to punish it. What's the difference between planet
Earth and other planets in the Universe? Will they be "punished" too?
We seem to give too much importance to this planet. Oh how I wish we
could meet grey guys so they can tell us what's this all about. That's
providing they know more than we do.

--
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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Doug and Dave
Date: 5 Oct 91 17:33:00 GMT

I was intrigued to see, in the Doug and Dave saga, that the pair were
reported to have been inspired in their UK crop circle hoax, by:- a)
(Time magazine 23/9/91) "... by reports of flying saucer
sightings, and recalling crop circles created by tractors by
Australian farmers several years earlier, they decided to flatten
some corn to make it appear that a UFO had landed." b) (my memory of a
TV item here) one of the pair being from Australia?
Naturally, we'd be interested to know more about the alleged Australian
connection. So, has anyone come across further information on the
Aussie link? We'd be happy to follow it up for everyone.
When most people outside of Australia, talk of "saucer nests" or "crop
circles" they refer to the Jan 1966 discovery/report at Tully,
Queensland. George Pedley, was startled to see a blue-grey saucer with
no portholes, antenna or signs of life, rise from a lagoon area,
making a hissing sound. It rose vertically at speed, slowed down at 20
metres altitude, then left to the south-west. Inspection of the area
revealed a circle of dead reeds, floating on the lagoon surface,
swirled in a clockwise direction and of 10 metres diameter. No
satisfactory explanation has ever been forthcoming. An excellent
outline of the case, written by Bill Chalker, is to be found in Story,
R. (1980), "The Encyclopedia of UFOs", New English Library, pages
370-371, together with a small picture of the trace.
PS Thanks to Linda Bird for supplying a copy of the Time article.

--
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From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Belgium
Date: 6 Oct 91 17:46:00 GMT

Jim, The May/June 1991 issue of the IUR featured a lengthy article by
Auguste Meessen, Professor of Physics, Catholic University, Louvain.
(Belgium?). The article mentions Meessen is fluent in German-did I see
Clark Matthews posting German the other day?  Auguste talks of "We have
even been able to study in detail material from both military and
civilian ground radar screens."  Auguste is a member of SOBEPS.
Perhaps you could, through Clark direct some inquiries to Meessen?

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!afglsc.span.nasa.gov!webb
Subject: (none)
Date: 9 Oct 91 15:33:01 GMT

From: [e-mail]

To: Sheldon Wernikoff
I will put a copy of Pritchard's implant article in the mail today. Forget
the costs. His paper does not deal directly with the Price case. My
comments on that come from conversations with Dave. Basically what he was
saying about the penile material was that its material construction was
not dissimilar to either man-made or naturally-occurring materials on Earth,
and therefore by itself cannot provide proof of alien technology.
Other than that you should talk with him.

On another topic: The July MUFON J. issue has a letter from Paul Fuller
criticizing an earlier letter from George Wingfield. In it Paul, a supporter
of the Meadon wind theory for the crop circles, refers to your work creating
'...repeatedly created ...five equidistant vortices...' in the lab. He says
Meadon discusses your work in his latest book and Paul uses your's and
Ohtsuki's results as support for Meadon's theory. I remember some discussion
of this in Paranet. Have you published your results? Do you have something
in writing that you could send me? Finally, do you really believe that
Meadon's theory 'holds water'? Wind vortices could create some of the
hundreds of circles reported but it seems unlikely to be the answer for all.
Fuller refers to a bunch of circumstantial reports of observations of wind
vortices creating circles 'in broad daylight'! Are these reports true and,
if so, why haven't they been published somewhere? Of course, Meadon merely
says that those circles that can't be explained by his theory (such as the
pictograms) are hoaxes and now has the 60-year old hoaxers to 'prove it'.
Fuller's point is that the phenomena has not changed that much through the
eighties in that most of the circles are just that; also even multiple
separate circles and concentric circles can be explained by Meadon's theory.
Even that seems to be stretching the wind vortex theory. I look forward to
your comments (or those of anyone else who wants to jump in).  Dave





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!afglsc.span.nasa.gov!webb
Subject: Article
Date: 9 Oct 91 15:33:14 GMT

From: [e-mail]

To: Keith Basterfield.  I am sending Sheldon a copy of Pritchard's paper. I
would also echo his request and ask you for a copy of the FPP article you
refered to. I am unaware of that journal in our library. Hopefully I can
provide you something in return later. I am still playing with HumCat and
hope to send you an Australian listing soon.
Thanks, Dave




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Phobos/Deimos Densities
Date: 9 Oct 91 16:20:00 GMT


 > From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

 > There was recently a quote from R. Hoagland stating that the moons
 > of Mars are hollow.  I decided to inquire of them who knbow their
 > planetary astronomy stuff, and received the following message from
 > Dr. VanFlandern on CI$.  I have some other files by this same
 > scientist if anyone is interested - he has put forward some
 > alternative cosmological ideas which may interest paranet subscribers.

Paul:

Anything you can do to encourage Dr. Van Flandern to join us directly on
ParaNet would be greatly appreciated. Tom is one of the pre-eminent
planetologists in the world, and has exhibited a surprising amount of
open-mindedness on the UFO subject, despite his basic skepticism.


Jim

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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Belgium
Date: 9 Oct 91 16:30:00 GMT


 > Jim, The May/June 1991 issue of the IUR featured a lengthy article by
 > Auguste Meessen, Professor of Physics, Catholic University, Louvain.
 > (Belgium?). The article mentions Meessen is fluent in German-did I see
 > Clark Matthews posting German the other day?  Auguste talks of "We have
 > even been able to study in detail material from both military and
 > civilian ground radar screens."  Auguste is a member of SOBEPS. Perhaps
 > you could, through Clark direct some inquiries to Meessen?

Its my understanding that efforts are underway, as we speak, to "hook in" to
the Free University in Brussels. When and if that happens, I'm sure we will be
able to communicate in one language or another. And I'm sure Clark will be
happy to translate, nicht wahr? <Gezundheit!>

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ucs.usl.edu!pgwres01
Subject: Mail mail mail...
Date: 9 Oct 91 19:34:26 GMT

From: Fraering Philip G <[e-mail]>


How does one go about mailing the people on Paranet from
the internet? I've been trying to mail a couple people, using
both the INTERNET and UUCP address, to no avail...

I guess science just hasn't proven that y'all exist, or something.
Prob. just a conspiracy to clog up the net :-)

Phil Fraering
[e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Belgium
Date: 9 Oct 91 23:29:00 GMT

Keith,

Meessen is on the Internet.  Perhaps you could compose a letter for him,
have Vlad netmail it to me and I will send it through channels to get a
response?

Mike

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Micap
Date: 10 Oct 91 00:59:00 GMT


 > Mike, I am sorry to say, Allen Roberts does Not have access to FIDO.
 > He runs GT power COMM software and is on a different net, he says.
 > Does this mean he can't (sob) be on Paranet?? <g>
 >
 > Perhaps I can receive something for him by FAX or he can phone, or
 > something. I am really kind of new to all this FIDO/net stuff.

Have him give me a voice call at 303-431-8796.  I will be glad to discuss this
with him.

Mike

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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: ogden object
Date: 10 Oct 91 02:56:00 GMT

Hi Jim,

Nothing more known about the O.O. at the moment.  The writing on the
Object is said to be microscopic, yet a sample of it turned out to be
gibberish (altho it did look Arabic).

We're still waiting for Peggy Noonan to get here pictures...

Linda

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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Dein Deutch
Date: 9 Oct 91 10:45:00 GMT


 LB> Well, your German translation was "sehr gut."  I'll be posting
 LB> another ufology quiz and we'll see how you do!


Well, I can but try.  Me & my dictionary will do our best.  Then I'll have M.
Blavatsky polish the result.  (I cheat)

Best,
  Clark



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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Clark's New Business...
Date: 9 Oct 91 10:48:00 GMT


 LB> Good business, actually...could sell to schools, universities,
 LB> private collectors...

Actually, yes.  There's a store on the Upper West Side called Maxilla &
Mandible that sells plaster casts of fossil skeletons and they do a land-office
business!

Anyone know where I can get an ostrich?

Cheap?

Best,
  Clark

PS -- Female only, please
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: timeshifting UFOs
Date: 9 Oct 91 23:21:00 GMT


 > From: ncar!UNHH.UNH.EDU!K_MACARTHUR1
 > Date: 7 Oct 91 23:13:02 GMT
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: info.paranet
 >
 > From: [e-mail]

 >         If time was being manipulated on a localized volume
 > of space to achieve
 > certain effects (bending light, overcoming inertia, etc.),
 > then the rest of the
 > environment feels those effects.

Hi Korac,

Absolutely correct, but the range of the effects is open to
dispute.  It depends on how "localized" the time-field is and
what is going on inside it (which determines what radiates from
it).   These are imponderables -- we can barely imagine such a
technology, let alone predict its range or flexibility.  We can,
however, extrapolate some of its effects.

I'm fascinated by the soil samples, scorched asphalt, "sunburn",
and "instant cataracts" left behind by these craft.  But the
difficulty seems to be in obtaining highly reputable samples and
making sense of the effects.  Some effects are highly tertiary,
e.g.: human effects.  The distinctive burns on the Cash/Landrum
witnesses and on Stephan Michalek in Ontario only lasted 5-6
weeks, and we are left with secondard physiological effects:
cancers, recurrent "stigmata", etc.

Still, we can get some idea of the processes involved by
examining soil samples & plants, with their distinctive cellular
breakdowns, stunted growth/gigantism, and the crystalline,
hydrophobic nature of UFO-radiated soil.

I hear that one fellow has come close to duplicating the
crystalline, hydrophobic soil of "genuine" UFO circles.  After
several months of trying different techniques, he simply
"nuked" normal soil/humus in a microwave oven for about 2
hours!!!  He got barren, crystalline, water-resistant soil
incapable of recovering itself or supporting plant growth.

 > If the timeshifting was truly localized,
 > and nothing outside
 > of a certain volume was affected, I would think that
 > everything within that
 > volume would be hidden from view, like an event horizon or
 > something.  I agree
 > that nobody is expert on this sort of thing (that I know
 > of, anyway), so I may
 > be just speculating about fiction.


Right, exasperating, isn't it?  Plus you commented later that no
one has any expertise on the phenomenon -- there's a fellow out
of Austin who has worked the theoretical end of this for 25
years.  I'll make his equations available to you if you know some
math/physics geeks who can take the time to analyse them.

Best,
  Clark


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Bentwaters, timeshifts
Date: 9 Oct 91 23:43:00 GMT


 > Now, the question is, what is causing the time-shifting?
 > Why would shifting time change the buoyancy of an object?
 > The only way I can think of a localized time-shift being
 > created is with some sort of gravitation effect.

Ah -- but what if gravity is a function of *time*???

Eg:  what if mass is a function of time?  Or matter itself, for
that matter?

Best,
  Clark


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Dan Casolaro
Date: 10 Oct 91 05:00:00 GMT


 > Can anyone illuminate this further?  I'm also studying
 > Inslaw, the
 > Casolaro murder, and the October Surprise  (Where WAS
 > George ?)
 >

Hi Steve, pleased to make your acquaintance.  I can't shed TOO
much light on INSLAW and Dan Casolaro but it is a very
interesting case.  I agree:  where there's light, there's often
heat.

Have you seen this week's Village Voice?  The feature article
illuminates this very subject.  Also I recommend checking the
index to Barron's Financial Magazine for this year for an
excellent sidebar on INSLAW and the court cases.  The article
appeared in Spring/Summer.  Dow Jones has a good investigative
team but they rarely stray into mainstream journalism.  I
think Alan Abelson may have written the article, but I don't
have it handy & can't check just now.

Isn't Ed Meese a swell guy?  The U.S. Attorney General who
brought us Operation Sun Devil aids/abets/encourages software
piracy by his cronies.  Then he sabotages the program's true
authors while he helps tout the product to secret police from
Israel to So. Korea to the Tonton Macoutes.  And the kicker:
The Meeseware has a bug that lets the Justice [sic] Dept., CIA,
and anyone else [who is properly equipped] dial into it and dump
the system data from each secret police organization directly
into their own computers.

Guess it's that *dang* New World Order thing.  I'm old dog &
have difficulty thinking in these imaginative new ways...

Watch yourself.  My BBS:  201-451-5583, Fido 1:107/816.0.

Best,
  Clark [not dead either]

PS -- Have you tried the Christics?


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Mail Mail Mail...
Date: 10 Oct 91 12:20:00 GMT


 > From: ncar!ucs.usl.edu!pgwres01
 > Date: 9 Oct 91 19:34:26 GMT
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: info.paranet
 >
 > From: Fraering Philip G <[e-mail]>
 >
 >
 > How does one go about mailing the people on Paranet from
 > the internet? I've been trying to mail a couple people, using
 > both the INTERNET and UUCP address, to no avail...
 >
 > I guess science just hasn't proven that y'all exist, or something.
 > Prob. just a conspiracy to clog up the net :-)
 >

We are in the process of working out the logistics of this problem.  In the
meantime, mail your net message to <User.Name>@paranet.org.  I will see that
it is routed correctly while we get the system set up for this.  Please do not
mail to the fidonet.org address as all mail going there is very unreliable.

Michael Corbin
Director

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Ogden Object
Date: 10 Oct 91 12:26:00 GMT


 > Nothing more known about the O.O. at the moment.  The writing on the
 > Object is said to be microscopic, yet a sample of it turned out to be
 > gibberish (altho it did look Arabic).
 >
 > We're still waiting for Peggy Noonan to get here pictures...

From the Rocky Mountain News, October 9, 1991, Page 30 ...

"As the first truckload of high-level radioactive waste brought to Idaho in
more than two years was being unloaded Tuesday, American Indians joined the
state's fight to bar more than 200 more shipments to Idaho National
Engineering Laboratory.  Shipments of radioactive waste from the
decommissioned Fort St. Vrain nuclear plant in Platteville [Colorado] resumed
Saturday, Tribal Council member Marvin Osborne said the Department of Energy
was formally advised that future shipments will violate Shoshone-Bannock law
until the government finances a hazardous-material transportation safety
program on the Fort Hall Reservation.  The main route to the Idaho lab cuts
through the reservation."

So, on the map, this places the Indian reservation very near to Pocatello,
Idaho.  This story also verifies that the DOE is working to dump nuclear waste
into a hole which could be our suspected site for the O.O.  I have contacted
Peggy by voice and given her this information.  At least part of the story is
verified.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]

 For administrative requests (subscriptions, back issues) send to:

UUCP            {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara-request
DOMAIN          [e-mail]
 To obtain back issues by anonymous ftp, connect to:

DOMAIN          ftp.uiowa.edu (directory /archives/paranet)

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 488

                          Saturday, October 12th 1991

Today's Topics:

                              Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
                                    Re: Micap
                       Re: BENTWATER,UK ON UNSOLVED MYSTE
                                Mail mail mail...
                             Phobos/Deimos Densities
                                Re: ogden object
                                    NASA SETI
               COSMOS 955 - Space Shuttle Displacer and Former UFO
                                     Goodies
                                    Implants
                             Hudson Valley Messages
                                      VISIT

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 8 Oct 91 21:54:34 GMT


 CM> Bell says that the USA and the so-called Grey aliens work together and
 CM> intend to ignite Jupiter and use it as a second Sun. [Andre adds that
 CM> whatever this may mean, he has it from a second source in Gulf Breeze,


Hmmm...somebody there show him a copy of "2010"?  ;-)



--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: Micap
Date: 8 Oct 91 21:54:34 GMT


 BJ> Mike, I am sorry to say, Allen Roberts does Not have access to FIDO.
 BJ> He runs GT power COMM software and is on a different net, he says.
 BJ> Does this mean he can't (sob) be on Paranet?? <g>


I don't understand.  If he is simply running GT PowerComm which is
communications software...why doesn't he simply call a ParaNet board and
join in?




--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: BENTWATER,UK ON UNSOLVED MYSTE
Date: 2 Oct 91 01:07:56 GMT

Time delay, and shadow distortion? Very difficult because time is universal.
The person would now be out of sync with the rest of the world. Or did they
have a speed-up to get back in phase? Shadows are so close to us that the
delay would only be from the object projecting the shadow, to the object
creating the shadow. A matter of feet in most cases. Shadows doing strange
things, reminds me of childhood dreams. I don't buy it one bit.
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Mail mail mail...
Date: 10 Oct 91 18:34:00 GMT


 > How does one go about mailing the people on Paranet from
 > the internet? I've been trying to mail a couple people, using
 > both the INTERNET and UUCP address, to no avail...


Oh, we exist, alright, its just that most of us are swamp gas, and a few of us
are just birth traumas...


Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Phobos/Deimos Densities
Date: 9 Oct 91 16:20:00 GMT


 > From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

 > There was recently a quote from R. Hoagland stating that the moons
 > of Mars are hollow.  I decided to inquire of them who knbow their
 > planetary astronomy stuff, and received the following message from
 > Dr. VanFlandern on CI$.  I have some other files by this same
 > scientist if anyone is interested - he has put forward some
 > alternative cosmological ideas which may interest paranet subscribers.

Paul:

Anything you can do to encourage Dr. Van Flandern to join us directly on
ParaNet would be greatly appreciated. Tom is one of the pre-eminent
planetologists in the world, and has exhibited a surprising amount of
open-mindedness on the UFO subject, despite his basic skepticism.


Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: ogden object
Date: 10 Oct 91 02:56:00 GMT

Hi Jim,

Nothing more known about the O.O. at the moment.  The writing on the
Object is said to be microscopic, yet a sample of it turned out to be
gibberish (altho it did look Arabic).

We're still waiting for Peggy Noonan to get here pictures...

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: NASA SETI
Date: 11 Oct 91 21:44:13 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

I recently came across this press release which I thought would interest
Paranet subscribers:

****************************************
 NASA PLANS SEARCH FOR EXTRATERRESTRIAL LIFE
 RELEASE: 91-170
 Date:  10-Oct-91 15:06 EDT

One year from now, on Oct. 12, 1992, 500 years after Columbus' discovery of
America, NASA will begin the most comprehensive search ever conducted for
evidence of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.

The NASA Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) microwave observing
project is a ground-based decade-long effort to detect microwave radio
transmissions that may have been deliberately or inadvertently broadcast towards
Earth by other civilizations.

Over the past few decades, scientific opinion has increasingly supported the
theory that complex life has evolved on planets orbiting other stars in our
galaxy and the universe.  In some cases, further evolution may have led to the
emergence of intelligence, culture and civilization.

While various searches for extraterrestrial radio technology have been made for
over the past 30 years, NASA's SETI project will use a combination of
state-of-the-art receivers in a systematic, long-range observing program
according to Dr. John Billingham, SETI office chief at NASA's Ames Research
Center, Mountain View, Calif. In the first few minutes of the project, more
searching will be accomplished than in the combined total of all previous
searches, he said.

The SETI project consists of two parts:  a targeted search and a sky survey.
The targeted search will use the largest available radio telescopes around the
world and search over the frequency range from 1,000 to 3,000 megahertz (MHz),
seeking a variety of patterns that may indicate the presence of an artificially
generated signal.  The targeted search will perform the most sensitive search
ever conducted of stars similar to our sun and less than 80 light-years distant.

In a complementary search, the sky survey will use the 34-meter antennas at
NASA's Deep Space Network (DSN) sites in the northern and southern hemispheres
to scan the entire sky over the frequency range from 1,000 to 10,000 MHz.

Because of the large increase in the area of sky and frequencies covered, a
signal will have to be stronger to be detected by the sky survey.  But it could
detect signals emitted in distant regions from directions that would be
overlooked if the search were limited only to those stars included in the
targeted search.

The quincentennial anniversary of Columbus' discovery of America was chosen as
the most appropriate time to inaugurate this next great exploration search for
other places in the universe where biological and cultural evolution may have
occurred, Billingham said.

On Oct. 12, 1992, the targeted search will be initiated on the world's largest
radio telescope at the National Science Foundation's Arecibo Observatory in
Puerto Rico and the sky survey system will be launched at the Goldstone, Calif.,
DSN complex. Both elements of the SETI project will use specially developed
digital signal processing systems capable of analyzing tens of millions of radio
frequency channels simultaneously.

The SETI project is managed for NASA's Office of Space Science and Applications
by the Ames Research Center, which also is responsible for the targeted search
portion of the project.  The Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., is
working with Ames and is responsible for the sky survey.

Editors Note:  Video that accompanies this feature is available to news media
personnel on 3/4-inch U-matic tape by calling the NASA Headquarters Broadcast
and Audio Visual Branch at 202/453-8594.

**********************************************

So, maybe SETI in earnest soon?





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: COSMOS 955 - Space Shuttle Displacer and Former UFO
Date: 12 Oct 91 07:33:57 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

This article appeared in the Usenet newsgroups sci.space and sci.space.shuttle
recently, and was posted by myself to alt.alien.visitors.

+  Remember that Soviet booster which the Space Shuttle DISCOVERY
+    had to avoid on September 15 during its STS-48 mission to deploy
+    the Upper Atmospheric Research Satellite (UARS)?  I did a little
+    reading on the COSMOS 955 satellite this rocket placed in Earth
+    orbit and found out that this Soviet mission has been making the
+    news since its launch in 1977.
+
+  In the 1987 book GUARDIANS: STRATEGIC RECONNAISSANCE SATELLITES,
+    by Curtis Peebles (Presidio Press, Novato, CA), on pages 227-229,
+    the author details what happened when COSMOS 955 lifted off into
+    the predawn sky from the Soviet Union's 'secret' military space
+    center, Plesetsk, on September 20, 1977:
+
+  'As the A-1 booster climbed, it left...Earth's shadow.  The
+    exhaust plume from the twenty engines was backlit by the Sun.  From
+    the ground, which was still in darkness, the now-illuminated exhaust
+    plume looked like a huge, jellyfish-shaped apparition slowly moving
+    through the night sky.  The weather over northern Russia was clear,
+    so early risers in Leningrad, Estonia, and as far west as Finland
+    saw the plume (Moscow was clouded over).  Nikolay Milov, a local Tass
+    correspondent in the city of Petrozavodsk, wrote up a brief account
+    of an 'unusual natural phenomenon observed in Karelia.'  Two days
+    later, the report was sent out over the international wires.  Soon,
+    American newspapers were filled with accounts of the 'jellyfish UFO'
+    seen over Russia.'
+
+  Some Western Soviet space experts, such as James Oberg, were quick
+    to make the connection between the UFO and the September 20 launch.
+    Unfortunately, his reports did not reach the general populace of the
+    Soviet Union, where its UFO buffs blew the incident all out of propor-
+    tion.  Soviet officials were stuck between denouncing the UFO reports
+    and trying not to admit to the existence of Plesetsk, even though it
+    was known to most of the West since 1966.
+
+  Several other launches after COSMOS 955 also made similar UFOs
+    in the sky, increasing the UFO stories and further frustrating the
+    government.  For a while Soviet authorities even tried to pass off
+    the rocket exhaust plumes as natural phenomenon.  Finally, to stop
+    the erroneous reports, the Soviets admitted to the Plesetsk space
+    facility in 1983 in their PRAVDA newspaper, while avoiding any
+    mention of its military aspects.
+
+  COSMOS 955 was a member of the Heavy ELINT (ELectronic INTelli-
+    gence) class of Soviet satellites.  As an interesting side note, its
+    immediate predecessor, COSMOS 954 (launched September 18, 1977),
+    became infamous for entering Earth's atmosphere on January 24, 1978,
+    and spreading debris from its nuclear reactor across Canada.  Had
+    COSMOS 954 lasted one more orbit, it would have entered over New York
+    City.  The satellite was a member of the Soviet nuclear-powered ocean
+    surveillance program.
+
+  Larry Klaes  [e-mail]
+       or - ...!decwrl!mtwain.enet.dec.com!klaes
+       or - [e-mail]
+        or - [e-mail]
+
+       'All the Universe, or nothing!' - H. G. Wells
+
+  EJASA Editor, Astronomical Society of the Atlantic

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:         | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms        | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Goodies
Date: 10 Oct 91 05:28:00 GMT

Thank you very much for the packet of goodies, safely received "down
under." (Does that make you up top?) The Time UK crop circle article
was intriguing. I've posted a request elsewhere for any information on
the Australian connection. The material on Oechsler was fascinating
and only goes to confirm my suspicions about the rather low quality of
the material generated by him and Good. I'm circulating the material
around researchers here. The "Ogden object" I see, remains hidden for
the moment. Let's hope someone cracks a decent lead on this one.
I am despatching today some Australian material for you. A copy of the
last few UFORA Research Digests and a copy of the June 1991 issue of
the local UFORA Newsletter. Hope you find them of interest. Also
included is a copy of my co-authored article "UFO Abductees and
Contactees:Psychopathology or Fantasy Proneness." You will see in this
article we suggested Whitley Strieber was fantasy prone, and that his
abductions were related more to a capacity for creative imagery.
Interesting to see that the MUFON Journal July 1991 carries a piece
about Strieber's withdrawal from UFO research saying and I quote the
Journal saying Strieber said: "UFO abductions are essentially due to
anxiety and stress, perhaps induced as early as childhood." Strieber is
then directly quoted as saying (about ufologists) "The 'abduction reports'
they generate are not real. They are artifacts of hypnosis and cultural
conditioning." This fantasy prone hypothesis is merely a working idea
of mine, scientifically falsifiable, and being testing by CUFOS at the
moment-not my position on the phenomenon, which is actually to follow
the data wherever it leads.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Implants
Date: 11 Oct 91 04:42:00 GMT

I'll airmail a copy of my co-authored fantasy prone article tomorrow.
Should be with you in about 10 days-my expense-my pleasure.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Hudson Valley Messages
Date: 11 Oct 91 08:15:00 GMT


 > have the money, we don't have the money because we can't get the
 > funding, we won't get the funding until we prove that we have an
 > anomaly to investigate, and we can't prove that we have an
 > anomaly until we do scientific testing on it, which we don't
 > have the money for....are we at an impasse?

Jim,

This reminds me very much of Harry Belafonte's song : "There's hole in
the bucket dear Lisa..."

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Vlad

--
Vladimir Godic - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: VISIT
Date: 13 Oct 91 05:08:00 GMT

In 1983 I published the following article, by John F. Schuessler, in
the UFO Research Australia Newsletter (Vol 4, No1, July-August 1983).
I am sure John won't mind if I reprint this article here. He gave me
a permission many years ago to reprint any article he sends me
personally. There is so much talk about VISIT, here on Paranet, but
there are perhaps people who don't know what VISIT is. Please bear in
mind that this article was published in 1983 and obviously there have
been many changes in VISIT since than. To the best of my knowledge,
VISIT is not a NASA project but I believe NASA has  (or had) some interest
in VISIT because of its particular interest in space craft design.

----------------------------------------------------------------

                        PROJECT VISIT


Project VISIT (Vehicle Internal System Investigative Team) is a
non-profit corporation consisting of professional members including
doctors, engineers and scientists, as well as supporting members such
as secretaries, artist and news personnel.

Within the field of UFO study, our organization has focused its
efforts on the scientific and engineering study of the internal
systems of unidentified space vehicles and of the psychology of the
beings which occupy these vehicles. Scientific and engineering data
come from (1) transcripts of conversations between psychologists or
case investigators and the UFO abductees, (2) follow up conversations
with abductees, (3) an analysis of medical injuries sustained by the
witnesses during UFO close encounters, (4) data recorded by
electronic and photographic means, and (5) physical evidence examined
at the location of the incident.

The objectives of this research are to (1) determine if there is
correlation of scientific and engineering data from case to case, (2)
identify internal systems which are more prevalent, (3) evaluate the
purpose of these systems, (4) determine how these systems operate,
and (5) share the information obtained with the public at large.

To date VISIT has cataloged 86 abduction cases. Medical effects were
noted in 66 of these cases. Vehicle internal information was gained
from 19 of the cases with 45 more of the cases offering potential
internal system data. Electromagnetic effects were noted in 56 cases.
A time loss was noted by the witness in 44 of the cases.

VISIT has composed a list of questions which will aid the
investigator of abduction cases. The questions deal in detail with
the space engineering systems, medical examination, and instruments
used, physiology of the beings, and the psychological after effects
on the abductee.

VISIT cannot achieve its goals without the cooperation of the expert
investigators in the field. In return for case information, we will
provide the investigator with a scientific and engineering critique
of the data obtained in the case as well as provide the expanded
findings of our research.

Although we hold all particular case information strictly
confidential, it is our objective to provide the general results of
our research to educational institutions, government agencies,
doctors, scientists, other specialized experts, responsible UFO
organizations, news media, and the general public. The interchange is
accomplished through letters , quaterly public meetings, articles in
scientific journals, television and radio publications, articles for
the journals of various UFO organizations and participation in
symposiums.

A special project currently underway is the preparation of a catalog
of UFO cases  where the witnesses exhibited  medical injuries. The
project is in the data gethering phase. Once the archives have been
analyzed for appropriate information, a standard data base will be
develpoped, then the material will be assembled for publicaton.
--------------------------------------------------------------

As far as I remember, there was  more information on Project Visit
especially its relation to NASA but, unfortunately, my filing system
has failed me and I can't find it at the moment.



--
Vladimir Godic - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]

 For administrative requests (subscriptions, back issues) send to:

UUCP            {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara-request
DOMAIN          [e-mail]
 To obtain back issues by anonymous ftp, connect to:

DOMAIN          ftp.uiowa.edu (directory /archives/paranet)

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 489

                           Monday, October 14th 1991

Today's Topics:

                            Weird Night on Halloween
                                   Re: FATIMA
                       re: 'fantasy-susceptibility and...'
                                 Ball Lightning
                                    Pritchard
                                  Math on Mars
                       Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Myste
                                Re: ogden object
                                Re: Ogden Object
                           Re: Hudson Valley Messages
                                   Re: (none)
                                   Re: FATIMA
                           Re: Crop circle researcher

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Weird Night on Halloween
Date: 12 Oct 91 18:55:00 GMT

For those of you who can get KOA radio (850 on your AM dial), there
will be a second "Weird Night" with Rick Barber this month on
Halloween.  Don't miss it!  Should be a good one.  Last program
October 11 featured, among others, Jerry Decker of KeelyNet talking
about Spontaneous Human Combustion.  And also featured a man who
said he was abducted and implanted and that implant has been removed
and examined by doctors!
Great stuff.  Try out your radios --KOA is heard in 38 states so you
may be able to receive it.
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: FATIMA
Date: 10 Oct 91 18:23:50 GMT

I suppose in 1994 we will have to go through the revealing of the corrected
version of #3. Just for information sake the last girl became a nun and last
year at Xmas I talked to a Franciscian who still wrote to her on ocassion.
SHe was still alive and well. I had an urge to write and ask her address, but
I thought it would be rude to write and ask alot of questions. Now I would
write with only one question, did the message have anything to do with the
year 1993. She could simply state, no or yes, without divulging information.
(of course some folks would automatically turn over that rock, hiding behind
the tree and say she was lying?)

It's futile.

So the 11:11 people are a year ahead of Fatima, and according to the
Nostradamas prediction experts, it already happened last year. The Dr. Corder
files are about 99% incorrect. Label me skeptical to the max on the above...
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!usl.edu!pgf9240
Subject: re: 'fantasy-susceptibility and...'
Date: 13 Oct 91 03:11:44 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Fraering Philip G)


Well, what about 'fantasy-prone' people that don't see UFO's? I
think I might be 'fantasy-prone,' and I do like to think I have
an overactive imagination, but I've seen nothing, have no mysterious
gaps in my memory (except for some parts of high school, but that
has a more mundane explanation :-), ...

Except maybe for reading messages on Paranet written by people
who according to the mail systems don't exist...

Phil




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!usl.edu!pgf9240
Subject: Ball Lightning
Date: 13 Oct 91 03:11:57 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Fraering Philip G)


Has anyone out there seen ball lightning? Are you willing to share
details of your experience? If so, please contact me at
[e-mail].

Thank You.

Phil




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Pritchard
Date: 13 Oct 91 04:08:00 GMT


Hi Dave,

I just received the Pritchard paper in today's mail. Thank you
kindly. I've only had a chance to glance through it briefly, but
will post my comments shortly. BTW, I hope you received my last
message - I was using a new fido gateway.

Thanks again,

Sheldon
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!apple.com!well!ddrasin
Subject: Math on Mars
Date: 13 Oct 91 11:35:34 GMT

From: well![e-mail] (Dan Drasin)

+ From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
+ First, Dr. Marina Popovich DID NOT MENTION THE PHOBOS INCIDENT IN
+ ANY OF HER TALKS.

Don, I attended her talk in Tucson, and did hear her mention the
Phobos incident. She also showed one of the infamous photos,
although, as I recall, this was to the people who gathered around
her after the talk. I could be mistaken, but I believe you were out
front at the UFO magazine booth during at least some of her talk,
and therefore might not have caught the mention.

+ a mentor of Hoaglands, Z. Sitchen.

Hoagland was on to Sitchin (sic) and his material as early as 1984.
I'm not aware of his being considered a 'mentor,' however. Hoagland
and I agree to disagree about many things (and particularly about
how to present them!) but, imho, he has done important work and
should be given credit where due.

+ Earl Torun. Torun does work for the Defense Mapping Agency, my
+ heavan, must be CIA, DIA, FBI, NSA, NRO, etc.  Take your pick.

Don, if Erol (not 'Earl') is an intelligence agent, I'm Mickey
Mouse. Get to know him sometime. Might even make a fine interview
for the magazine. And while you're at it you might apologize to him
for having posted such an outrageous accusation. His civilian
employment at the DMA is incidental to his independent work on the
Cydonia math.


+ Hoagland is fond of making grand pronouncements on Mars, Egypt,
the Pyramids, and now is claiming he deciphered the crop circles and
they relate to the FACE. Oh**please spare me, just how did he
accomplish this?

Most unfortunately, Hoagland overstates a lot of things.... but if
you don't know how he claims to have accomplished this, how do you
know he hasn't in fact done so? Some things are true even if Richard
Hoagland says they're true.

What Hoagland, Torun and others have essentially done is to
contribute a few more threads to a growing fabric of known
mathematical correspondences. The Scottish astronomer Duncan Lunan,
and others, have been on to this material for years, and have drawn
links between the great pyramids of Egypt and Mexico, the orbits of
Phobos and Deimos, and many other key measurements. This work is
utterly uncanny, and I think you would find it fascinating if you
looked into it.

Like it or not, Hoagland has made at least one major discovery as a
result of his studying the Cydonia math: that the preponderance of
major volcanic and vortical ('red spot') phenomena on the bodies in
the solar system occur at latitudes around 19.5 degrees, though no
one can, as yet, explain why. (These include the Hawaiian chain on
Earth, Olympus Mons on Mars, etc., etc.). 19.5 degrees, by the way,
is the latitude at which a polar-oriented tetrahedron intersects its
curcumsphere. In other words, take a tetrahedron (three-sided
equilateral pyramid) and surround it with a perfectly-fitting
sphere. If one point of the tetrahedrom is at the South pole, the
other three will fall at 19.5 degrees north latitude.


By the way, Mark J. Carlotto's new book, THE MARTIAN ENIGMAS - A
CLOSER LOOK, will be out in January (North Atlantic Books). It is a
sober report on his five years of image-reconstruction, enhancement
and analysis of the controversial Viking photos. The book is a
collaboration between Dr. Carlotto and myself (as editor-designer),
and contains the most complete collection of the photos of the Face
and other mysteries currently available, including some photographic
material previously unavailable to the genereal public. It also
explains the image enhancement processes, fractal analyses, etc.,
that Carlotto has applied to the 1976 Viking pictures. We've been
very careful to spearate fact from speculation -- *and* have
included most of the major observations and speculations made by
various researchers over the years.


+ From: [e-mail] (Kurt Lochner)
 >> The land forms found on Mars are NOT those done by Nature.  The
 >> angles formed by the pyramids are impossible for nature to create.
+ Whoa! What about the calcium carbonate molecules just
+ mentioned after the 20000 books written?

Kurt, the Martian landform in question, the *D&M Pyramid* is
roughly two *kilometers* in its longest dimension. The forces that
assemble molecules do not operate at that scale. The observation in
question was made by Erol Torun, who is a professional geographer,
and whose avocations are geomorphology and mathematics. He has
theorized in considerable detail about the D&M's shape, and is
hard-pressed to account for it in terms of natural forces.

+ There are too many variations on the e/pi constant.  Even the
+ latitude on Mars where the city/ face/pyramid are found is a
+ function of e/pi.

Would you like it a little more precisely than that? The
abovementioned D&M Pyramid, which, according to Torun, arguably
contains over twenty proportional relationships involving e, pi,
sqrt 3, sqrt 5, etc., actually straddles north latitude 40.869
degrees, whose arc-tangent equals e divided by pi! The forthcoming
book by Carlotto contains a detailed explanation of these claims.

+ This is quite a bit like Bruce Cathey's geomancy, which I also
+ find to make no mathematical 'sense' and I attribute much of this
+ approach to the truncation/rounding-off errors that one might not
+ suspect of hand-held calculators.  While the numbers appear 'close
+ enough for government work', I do not accept the accuracy of such
+ equipment for my own work, which includes engineering and physics
+ homework of the last eight years of my life.

Kurt, the problem is that these measurements are *abundant*. Even
if they were accurate to a degree (rather than tenths or hundredths
of a degree, as in Torun's measurements) their sheer number would
very likely defy any serious attempts at explanation in natural
terms. In 'systems thinking,' accuracy trades off against frequency:
the presence of large numbers of approximations makes up for a lack
of precision in any given measurement.

Debunkers often sieze on this question of precision, BUT THEY NEVER,
*EVER* SPECIFY THEIR TOLERANCES! (Tell me, Kurt, how precisely
rectilinear does a terrestrial village have to be laid out in order
to appear as a man-made construct in a satellite photo?) They also
love to bandy about phrases such as 'extraordinary claims demand
extraordinary evidence' without *ever* defining or quantifiying what
is 'ordinary' or "extraordinary." Why not? Because it can't be done.
The line is always drawn subjectively and always comes down to human
beings making judgment calls within a consensus reality, usually
heavily weighted politically. Yesterday's extraordinary is often
today's ordinary, but nobody seems to notice.

Thoughtless debunkers have also claimed that you can go fishing in a
natural landscape and find random points that form any angle you
want. While that may be true, it does *not* reflect the sequence in
which these discoveries were actually made in the Viking photos of
Mars. The separate anomalous objects were found *first*. Only
*afterward* were their relationships measured and found to be
mathematically interesting.


+> Carl Sagan and Richard Hoagland used to be friends.  In public,
+> Sagan says that this information is nonsense, but in private, he
+> says something quite different.
+ That's because Sagan has championed the cause of Science as a
+ national goal of literacy.

Kurt, as a scientist, shouldn't you be particularly careful of
providing explanations off the top of your head?


+>  *  COMING NEXT:  My discussions with Wendelle Stevens
+> regarding Grey        *
+>  *         aliens from the Reticulum Star cluster and
+> his playing of a       *
+>  *         cassette tape of the sounds of one of their
+> space ships.          *
+ Might I tell you about the sound being somewhat easily fabricated
+ on a polyphonic sampling keyboard? Gas Music from Jupiter, indeed!

Forgive me, Kurt, but that kind of remark smacks of 'instant science.'
If you haven't performed an actual ananlysis on the sounds in
question all you're left with is personal opinion. In science,
however, one point of view requires as much proof as another.

In the infamous Meier case, the recorded spacecraft sounds really
did sound like some kind of hokey Hollywood flying-saucer noise...
until a real analysis was actually performed. As you may know, the
waveforms turned out to be so complex and so unusually modulated as
to defy identification. Evidently they could not have been produced
by any known commercially-available synthesizer of the day (mid
1970s).


Dan Drasin
[e-mail]%Apple.Com




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Sudduth)
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Myste
Date: 13 Oct 91 06:19:00 GMT

>Time delay, and shadow distortion? Very difficult because time
>is universal. The person would now be out of sync with the rest
>of the world. Or did they have a speed-up to get back in phase?
>Shadows are so close to us that the delay would only be from
-----
I don't quite know what you're trying to say here - however, it is
quite possible for a shadow to lag behind an object (granted it
would take tremendous amounts of energy).  The delay would take
place between the object being illuminated and the shadow.  The
photons from a distant source would just have to take a longer time
to go from the illuminated object to the area where the shadow is.
This implies a much MUCH greater distance (assuming the photons are
traveling at the speed of light), or, the object on which the shadow
is being projected exists at a different moment that the person or
object being illuminated.
--
Don Sudduth - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: ogden object
Date: 12 Oct 91 16:25:33 GMT


In a message sent 19:56: 09 Oct 91, Linda Bird wrote to
ncar!amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms:
 LB> writing on the
 LB> Object is said to be microscopic, yet a sample of it
 LB> turned out to be
 LB> gibberish (altho it did look Arabic).

Hello Linda.

When you say "gibberish", are you referring to gibberish under the assumption
that it _is_ Arabic or do you mean that it is gibberish regardless of what
language it _may_ be?

BTW: Who proved it to be gibberish and _how_?

Regards,
Jim

)
--
Jim Graham - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Ogden Object
Date: 13 Oct 91 01:43:00 GMT

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the posting of the newspaper clipping regarding the O.O. and
it's connection to Idaho.  It would be very handy if someone could get
a photo of these "nuclear wastes" so we could see if that object is
among them.  Wonder if that big "O" ring that Guy Kirkwood had the
photo of was radioactive...?  Would it just be  sitting out in a ditch,
as it seemed to be if it was contaminated?

Thanks,

Linda


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Messages
Date: 13 Oct 91 16:09:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <10-11-91 01:15> Vladimir Godic wrote:

VG>  Jim,
VG>
VG>  This reminds me very much of Harry Belafonte's song : "There's hole
VG>  in the bucket dear Lisa..."

"But with WHAT shall I investigate it, dear Liza, dear Liza...."

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: 13 Oct 91 09:53:57 GMT

Did you know, Vladimir Godic said to ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush
on 05 Oct 91 22:49:00

 VG> That's fine but can anyone tell me why is God so concerened with THIS
 VG> planet and wants to punish it. What's the difference between planet
 VG> Earth and other planets in the Universe? Will they be "punished" too?


Reminds me of the old line...You think THIS world is crowded, wait till
you get to heaven.  And they are all dead! ;-)




--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: FATIMA
Date: 13 Oct 91 09:56:54 GMT


 PP> So the 11:11 people are a year ahead of Fatima, and according to the
 PP> Nostradamas prediction experts, it already happened last year. The Dr.
 PP> Corder files are about 99% incorrect. Label me skeptical to the max on
 PP> the above... --- TBBS v2.1/NM

And sane...to boot.  ;-)



--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Crop circle researcher
Date: 2 Oct 91 04:07:07 GMT

> I've been following the crop circle phenomenon with some interest,
> and so was very interested by the admission of hoaxing by the two
> gentlemen in the UK.  While I have little or no opinion myself on
> the subject, I must say that I found myself stricken with hysterics
> upon hearing that crop circle researchers had suddenly become
> *skeptics* themselves (notice the small 's', so as to avoid any
> possible confusion with or controversy over the term with one right
> honourable R. Moen ;-), and were refusing to accept this as possible.
>
> I get the sense that these folks have about the same level of
> integrity as messrs. Pons and Fleishmann.

The claim that these two old geezers were responsible for thousands of
circles all over the U.K. does indeed sound implausible, doesn't it?
I certainly don't buy it.  [Shocked silence descends on the crowd.]

Of course, there's an angle to this that's been a bit neglected:  Was
Bower and Chorley's claimed method a believable way to make crop
circles?  (I've been a bit busy of late, and would be interested in echo
readers' views on this, since they've likely been paying closer
attention.)  Thoughtful cereologists, whatever their initial opinions,
ought to be considering various possibilities, including hoaxes not just
by Bower & Chorley but also possible unknown others.  The best way to
find out if, under what conditions, and to what degree hoaxing is likely
is to have some creative people try to make convincing ones.

What I'm getting at is that I get the impression that many cereologists
dismiss the possibility of hoaxing in particular cases without much
effort on anyone's part at really trying it.  This is reminiscent of
scientists pooh-poohing the idea of psi-experiment subjects fooling them
without consulting competent conjurers (which has happened often).  Of
course, the situation is not exactly parallel, since cereologists don't
have circle-hoaxing experts to consult, with the possible partial
exception of that British pair.

Best Regards,
Rick M.
("skeptic" with a small "s", indeed  ;->  but also
Secretary, Bay Area Skeptics, and
Member, Electronic Communications Subcommittee, CSICOP,
not purporting to speak for anyone but himself)

--
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 490

                          Wednesday, October 16th 1991

Today's Topics:

                              Linda Howe Doumentary
                                   Re: Goodies
                                Re: ogden object
                           Re: Did you get my message
                                   Re: Belgium
                       Re: BENTWATER,UK ON UNSOLVED MYSTE
                                 BITNET skeptics
                         'fantasy-susceptibility and...'
                                 Erol Torun/DMA
                          Re: WEIRD NIGHT ON HALLOWEEN
                       Re: BENTWATER,UK ON UNSOLVED MYSTE
                               Re: BALL LIGHTNING
                                    Re: Micap
                                    Re: Micap
                              Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ncar!hpvclmd.vcd.hp.com!miked
Subject: Linda Howe Doumentary
Date: 14 Oct 91 19:38:36 GMT

From: Mike Dobbs <[e-mail]>

The FOX network will air Linda Moulton Howes new documentary this
Friday night (Oct 18) at 9:00 EDT/PDT.  It is called:
The UFO Report: Sightings.
It will last one hour.
--------
  Mike Dobbs        /    Internet: [e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Goodies
Date: 15 Oct 91 03:39:00 GMT

Hi Keith,
      I'm so glad my things got to you safe and sound.  I'm looking
forward to what you are sending, and will share it with interested
people here "on top."
      Regarding Strieber, I wonder if he really was abducted or just
thought he was (fantasy).  Or if he was stressed out, then abducted
because of the stress.  I take it you think he is more fantasy-prone.
(You might know of our hearing in the U.S, Senate with a Supreme Court
nominee - Clarence Thomas?  And how he is being accused of sexual
harrassment?  There is a lot of speculation that his lady accuser is
fantasy-prone.)  Intersting theories.
     I'll post again when I get your articles.  Thanks so much and I
look forward to seeing them.

Best,
      Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: ogden object
Date: 15 Oct 91 04:04:00 GMT

Hi Jim,
   Glad you got my drawings of the Ogden Object.  One of the posters on
this BBS, Curtiss Hahn, offered to have his multi-languaged
father-in-law try to decipher the writing on the O.O.  That gentleman,
was able to read individual letters (for example, gljs) but said there
did not appear to be actual words or any type of message in that
writing sample I sent.{ Thus, it is "gibberish."  Which is what my
messages are looking like tonight with all this line noise!!  I'm
having to clean up the lines every few minutes...

See ya,
       Linda

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Did you get my message
Date: 15 Oct 91 04:40:00 GMT

Hi!
   Just copied your address, and will get out some articles to you this
week.  I'll include my address on the envelope.  Anything you wish to
send will be gladly received, and I'll share it.
   Many thanks,
   Linda

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Belgium
Date: 15 Oct 91 04:54:00 GMT

Hi Jim,
   In spite of Loren's being a skeptic, he is fluent in German, and I'm
sure will help with any translating here in Arizona.  That MAY be how
we'll hook him on our side!!   <:-)

Linda

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: BENTWATER,UK ON UNSOLVED MYSTE
Date: 14 Oct 91 11:50:00 GMT

PP>Time delay, and shadow distortion? Very difficult because
PP>time is universal.

Yes, absolutely, Pete!  Let's assume that time is universal -- I'll even
give you Hawking's proofs in his superstring theories that time's arrow is
real (e.g.: time can only go in one direction:  into the future).

But is time a universal *constant*?  Is its rate of change (progress) the
same everywhere in the universe?  What proofs do we have for this
assumption?  Following onto this, if time is *not* a universal constant, how
granular can "time-flow zones" be?  (E.g.:  Does the Andromeda galaxy go
"faster" than ours?  Does the center of our own galaxy go slower than we do?
 Could "different time" be confined to an area as small as a star system?  A
planet?  A moon?  A city block?  Your basement?)

People used to think that "constant time" was the case: They would point
to rates of radioactive decay and other physical processes as proof that
time's rate of progress is universal.

But Quantum work has completely confounded these assumptions.  Instead of
time (and the physical processes) progressing at a regular, predictable
pace, things seem to happen more on a probability basis.  In fact, Zeno's
paradox seems to apply in many cases (unless someone's looking, in which
case things happen on schedule).  Could it be that Zeno drives a starship?
Or at least makes them work??  Could it be that the secret of
interdimensional travel is for everyone to look the other way?? :-)

'Way back when I was in High School and taking A.P. Physics [and Einstein
had just published his Theory of Special Relativity  :-) ]  I remember
thinking how odd it was that time was a constant in the equations.  Einstein
had assumed that he had proven that lightspeed (c) could not be exceeded.
In my ignorance, it seemed to me that a variable rate of *time* could
account for faster-than-light (FTL) travel.  Such a variation in time-flow
could also possibly reconcile FTL travel with the inevitable time-distortion
effects (e.g.:  true FTL travel would allow people to fly away and come back
before they left!!!)

I'm ill-equipped to flesh out this proposition, let alone offer proofs, but
I'm still asking why *not*???

Moreover, if "the fundamental rules" don't apply / as time goes by " could
this have implications for *other* so-called universal constants?  Like
gravity?

Just wondering...

Best,
  Clark

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: BITNET skeptics
Date: 15 Oct 91 18:31:46 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

A CONCISE INTRODUCTION TO BITNET SKEPTIC DISCUSSION GROUP (LISTSERV)

By Gary Stone, INTERNET: [e-mail]

(With Apologies to Computer Scientists Everywhere)         23 Mar 91
The SKEPTIC Discussion Group is an automated exchange of email moderated by
Norman R. Gall, Dept. of Philosophy, York University, Toronto, Ontario,
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psychologists, natural and biological scientists, writers, etc. to take a
'skeptical' and scientifically informed look at claims of the paranormal,
etc. i.e., Creationism, Health Fraud, Witchcraft, crypto-zoology, Anything
that might appear in _The Skeptical Inquirer_ is fair game.'
The SKEPTIC Discussion Group is hosted on computer YORKVM1 on the BITNET
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INTERNET. There are just over 100 subscribers world wide. (Some of those
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To subscribe to SKEPTIC send an email to: LISTSERV%YORKVM1 with the one
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Try the above @gateway or your favorite @gateway into BITNET
You will receive an email confirming your subscription and some
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To contribute a message to SKEPTIC, address your email exactly as you
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GET   {filename}     Have an archive file sent to you {don't type brackets}




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: 'fantasy-susceptibility and...'
Date: 15 Oct 91 21:44:00 GMT


 nc> Well, what about 'fantasy-prone' people that don't see UFO's? I
 nc> think I might be 'fantasy-prone,' and I do like to think I have
 nc> an overactive imagination, but I've seen nothing, have no mysterious
 nc> gaps in my memory (except for some parts of high school, but that
 nc> has a more mundane explanation :-), ...

Hi Phil.  I think you're right about this.  Fantasy-proneness and imagination
are too different things entirely, in my opinion.

Imagination is just that:  imagination.  An imaginative person is *always*
aware that his/her imaginings are just that.

A fantasy-prone person is *unable* to make that distinction.  In fact, with a
few exceptions, fantasies tend to be *much* less inventive than active
imaginings, don't you think?  In fact, actual fantasies (where the person has
no control over the fantasies) often develop a boring "sameness" as the
delusion spreads.  I mean, LOOK at all the people who claim to have grown up in
Satanic cults, where they were *forced* to become "breeders", etc., etc.  It's
almost like these sad types infect one another with almost identical delusions
(and I believe that virtually all of the "Satanist" maunderings are wholly
delusional).  But these people pick these little scenarios up from one another
almost by osmosis, as if they were giving each other the flu.

'Way back in the 1880s and 1890s -- before Freud reinvented the whole field and
cloaked it with a veneer of opportunism and greed -- psychiatrists were always
MDs, and they were often called "alienists".  I.e.:  They tried to sort out the
ravings and pronouncements of people who were "alienated" from life's
mainstream.  Maybe it's time to revive the term "alienist", at least for our
own specialized field?  :-)

Freud, of course, repackaged classical mythology into a rubric designed for
agnostics -- then he dropped the price tag and encouraged twice-weekly visits,
to build a volume business.  Add a few (completely false) claims that he could
cure schizophrenia, and he was in business!


Best,
  Clark


PS -- I've always retained a soft spot for the work of the other folks in
Vienna in the 1880s.  They were already exploring brain chemistry as an
explanation for mental illness, and Freud set the study back about 70 years.
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Erol Torun/DMA
Date: 15 Oct 91 22:06:00 GMT


 nc> + Earl Torun. Torun does work for the Defense Mapping Agency, my
 nc> + heavan, must be CIA, DIA, FBI, NSA, NRO, etc.  Take your pick.

 nc> Don, if Erol (not 'Earl') is an intelligence agent, I'm Mickey
 nc> Mouse. Get to know him sometime. Might even make a fine interview
 nc> for the magazine. And while you're at it you might apologize to him
 nc> for having posted such an outrageous accusation. His civilian
 nc> employment at the DMA is incidental to his independent work on the
 nc> Cydonia math.


If I may intrude here, Dan, it seems to me to be highly unlikely that Mr.
Torun's work at the Defense Mapping Agency would put him in direct contact with
highly secret mapping data, probably the SATINT provided by the satellites of
the NRO.  I have no problem at all with this, because it seems to me that this
sort of work is one of the most legitimate applications of military
intelligence.  If Mr. Torun does such work for DMA (and it sure sounds like he
does in some capacity), he probably helped to save the lives of thousands of
Allied soldiers and Iraqi civilians by ensuring that our forces didn't get
lost in the desert and our Tomahawk missiles and F-117As flew true and hit the
right targets.

Anyway, unless/until the DMA is charged with sending cruise missiles thru the
bedroom windows of ParaNet hub operators [to ensure tranquility in the New
World Order? :-)]  I think we should be glad they did their jobs so well.  As
for the rest of the permanent Intelligence community, I continue to think that
they are potentially more dangerous to our own liberties than they are to most
of our adversaries.


4 what it's worth...

Clark

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: WEIRD NIGHT ON HALLOWEEN
Date: 14 Oct 91 15:23:11 GMT

Let me guess, Wisconsin is not one of those states? I tried last week, and
found nothing. Maybe I can get up a long wire and see if it's out there?
Sounds interesting.

Doing and research at this time?
--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: BENTWATER,UK ON UNSOLVED MYSTE
Date: 14 Oct 91 15:34:28 GMT

I think I should give up on this, but people stating their own shadows were
delayed, does not relate to the object being in a different plane or time,
the shadow is still in this time. To have a delay would me the delay occurs
between the object casting the shadow and the object projecting the shadow.
At 1/1000 reduction in speed the shadow would show no delay since it's
traveling at 186 miles per second. Move it to 1/10,000 the speed of light and
it's still 18.6 miles per second, which turns out to be roughly 66,960 miles
per hour. To go just one step further to 1.8 mps, it's still over 6,000 miles
an hour.

Where does all that energy come from in a few feet, and wouldn't you think
the people standing that close to it would be fast fried by some sort of
energy radiation?
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: BALL LIGHTNING
Date: 14 Oct 91 15:48:47 GMT

Yes I saw ball lightning once in my life. Summer of 1970 while watching a
storm out of a second floor picture window. I was a student and had an
apartment on the edge of town. The window faced south-west over a parking lot
and to the west across the street was a farm. The storms around here come in
fast, and most are from the west, so watching thunder storms can be
interesting...

The ball lightning (if that's what I really saw?) was after a close strike,
where upon a ball of light somewhere between a softball and basketball size,
rolled across a power wire a few feet, down the pole itself, and across the
ground about two feet. It sort of spun like a top a couple of seconds, or
less, and vanished. It was decaying in size, and if you know what a top looks
like as it is losing energy, that would be the type of spin. I would estimate
from memory that the whole event lasted 4 seconds at most.

I remember it well because I had heard of ball lightning and was quite
amused to have seen something that appeared to be the real thing. Oh yes
color was about what you would expect from a candle, yellowish with white
edges. No sound to note. It was during a heavy storm, with rain, so I could
not hear anything if it had made a noise. Just a ball of electricity taking a
short route, and disappearing.

The size may actually have been smaller, since light tends to make things
look bigger under dark skys. Anyway, it was a surprise.
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bruce Johnson)
Subject: Re: Micap
Date: 15 Oct 91 04:19:00 GMT

Steve,

<g> Duh, I don't know why he doesn't just call, in fact I believe he
does occasionally call, but mentioned to mesomething about how neat
it would be to get the echo 'live'. I am a mere babe in the woods in
this FIDO, net, stuff.
--
Bruce Johnson - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bruce Johnson)
Subject: Re: Micap
Date: 15 Oct 91 04:21:01 GMT


 MC>
 MC> Have him give me a voice call at 303-431-8796.  I will be
 MC> glad to discuss this with him.
 MC>
 MC> Mike
 MC>
 MC> --- FD 1.99c
 MC>  * Origin: ParaNet -- Leading UFO Research Network
 MC> (1:104/428.0)
Great, Mike, I presume this means there is hope for him getting his
board on the echos or something...
He said he did call once and got a rrecordin.
Thanks so much.
-B
--
Bruce Johnson - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 13 Oct 91 07:34:00 GMT


 >  CM> Bell says that the USA and the so-called Grey aliens work together and
 > CM> intend to ignite Jupiter and use it as a second Sun. [Andre adds that
 > CM> whatever this may mean, he has it from a second source in Gulf Breeze,
 >
 >
 > Hmmm...somebody there show him a copy of "2010"?  ;-)

There was a "prediction", about 25 years ago that Jupiter will became
a second Sun in our solar system. As we all know this has not yet
happened (and I don't think it will) - most of those so called
"predictions" just don't seem to work out.

Have you heard this before and do you see any connection with Bell's
statement Steve?

Vlad

--
Vladimir Godic - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 491

                           Monday, October 21st 1991

Today's Topics:

                                      Time
                                   Special Rel
                                  Pritchs paper
                                  Math On Mars
                          Re: Weird Night On Halloween
                           Re: crop circle researchers
                            Fragments of information
                                    FOX Show
                       Re: BENTWATER,UK ON UNSOLVED MYSTE
                              Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
                                   Special Rel
                          Fragments Of (mis)Information
                                    Fox Show
                         Our buddy takes flying lessons
                              Jupiter as Second Sun

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Time
Date: 16 Oct 91 17:34:31 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

+ But is time a universal *constant*?  Is its rate of change (progress) the
+ same everywhere in the universe?  What proofs do we have for this
+ assumption?  Following onto this, if time is *not* a universal constant, how
+ granular can 'time-flow zones' be?  (E.g.:  Does the Andromeda galaxy go...

I remember a physics problem I had in college in which we were to write a
grant application for two people to travel around the world and visit lots
of exotic locations - all for the purpose of physics.

The answer was that if you had two highly stable clocks perfectly
synchronized to each other in the same place, and then send them in
opposite directions around the world, staying close to the equator, and
if you take your time doing this, then when you bring them back together
they will disagree.  This all follows from fairly fundamental relativistic
considerations of the space-time metric in a rotating frame.  I remember
that it wasn't one of the the tougher problems in that course....

You know, I bet you _could_ get a Hydrogen maser in a suitcase these days...




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Special Rel
Date: 16 Oct 91 17:35:26 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

+ had just published his Theory of Special Relativity  :-) ]  I remember
+ thinking how odd it was that time was a constant in the equations.  Einstein
+ had assumed that he had proven that lightspeed (c) could not be exceeded.
+ In my ignorance, it seemed to me that a variable rate of *time* could

BTW, Clark, time is not a constant in the STR.  Time is a quantity which is
transformed between reference frames - especially if those two frames
are moving fast with respect to each other.  This has been experimentally
confirmed every which way.  For example, if you flew by me at high
speeds, I would see your clock ticking more slowly than my identical
clock.  The flow of time is _not_ a law of nature - the speed of light
IS (i.e. not dependent on reference frame).

I maintain that to build an FTL ship you need some new physics - not
just a loophole in STR.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Pritchs paper
Date: 17 Oct 91 03:24:00 GMT


Hello David,

It is important for all of us to be aware of the fact that
researcher David E. Pritchard, of the prestigious Massachusetts
Institute of Technology, is intrepid enough to come forward and
help lay the foundation for alien artifact analysis. Although
sometimes criticized by his colleagues, he remains undaunted in his
quest for the truth.

I agree with Pritchard when he asserts that what may be more
important than the artifact itself is the artifact's "pedigree".
That is, the account of how the artifact came to be discovered, and
corroboration of the statement by other witnesses. I feel that the
pedigree concept holds true for UFO photographs as well.

Performance is one way Pritchard feels an object might be able to
be ascertained as a product of alien technology. He gives the
example of finding a piece of structural material 25 times the
strength and stiffness of the best man made materials. What about
finding something like transparent aluminum?

Composition is another aspect of differentiation Pritchard touches
upon. Isotopic variance in an artifact from earthly natural
abundance would be an intriguing find. For example, finding a piece
of pure carbon that contains 100% of an isotope that only composes
.0001% of terrestrial carbon atoms would be most difficult to
explain.

Pritchard also writes about the possible significance of
submicroscopic structures, but warns that many earthly materials
have very strange looking arrangements at the submicron level.
Hence, caution must be used.

In conclusion, Pritchard notes that the most important aspect of
the entire analytical process is the reproducibility of results,
which I agree with wholeheartedly. I personally believe that as
yet, no artifacts analyzed have yielded results that would even
come close to satisfying Pritchard's requirements. (Of course, if
there was free access to some of that Roswell material {if that
exists}, things could change rather dramatically.)

Thanks again Dave for supplying that article.

Sheldon
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Math On Mars
Date: 18 Oct 91 05:54:00 GMT

Dan Drasin said;

 > Don, I attended her talk in Tucson, and did hear her mention the
 > Phobos incident. She also showed one of the infamous photos,
 > although, as I recall, this was to the people who gathered around
 > her after the talk. I could be mistaken, but I believe you were out
 > front at the UFO magazine booth during at least some of her talk,
 > and therefore might not have caught the mention.

I did not hear Popovich's entire speech, so you very well may be right.

 > Hoagland was on to Sitchin (sic) and his material as early as 1984.
 > I'm not aware of his being considered a 'mentor,' however. Hoagland
 > and I agree to disagree about many things (and particularly about
 > how to present them!) but, imho, he has done important work and
 > should be given credit where due.

No one is attempting to take anything from Hoagland, however he should not
speak on things that he does not know anything about.

I said with a very HEAVY DOSE OF SARCASM;

 > + Earl Torun. Torun does work for the Defense Mapping Agency, my
 > + heavan, must be CIA, DIA, FBI, NSA, NRO, etc.  Take your pick.

Dan, what you may not be aware of is the reason for my perhaps poor outburst.
Back in August I was a guest on Chuck Harder's For The People Network, and I
spoke about my research into Popovich and what she told me from a Soviet
perspective on their Mars Phobos mission. Several days later Hoagland came on
the program and after trashing Harder on several statements he (Harder) made
on an alleged asteroid story that a listener sent Harder, Hoagland proceeded
to attack Popovich as "someone spreading noise about Mars that was all
disinformation, to cover up what really went on there." Then Hoagland, with
nothing for proof other than his mouth, accused Popovich of being KGB. Now, I
can not with 100 percent say she is not, but I will be damned if he can say
she is. If you are going to accuse someone, then by God let us see Richard's
proof. I addressed this on Harder's program over a week ago, and what I said
was "if we use Hoaglands reasoning, that Popovich is KGB because she is a
retired USSR Air Force Colonel, then using that reasoning, one could say that
Hoagland and Torun could be intelligence since Torun is with the DMA." I hope
that clears this up.

 > Don, if Erol (not 'Earl') is an intelligence agent, I'm Mickey
 > Mouse.

Well, when I wrote my message, it was after midnite so I did misspell Erol by
spelling it Earl.

 > Most unfortunately, Hoagland overstates a lot of things....

Yes he does, and I do believe he loves to talk much and listen little.

 > What Hoagland, Torun and others have essentially done is to
 > contribute a few more threads to a growing fabric of known
 > mathematical correspondences.

OK, no argument with that, but my problem is if Hoagland does not know what he
speaks of, then shut the hell up. Very simple, and if he does wish to pursue
it, then do a little research into the question.

I do not know Hoagland, nor have I ever spoken to him. Vice versa on his part.
I do know a lot about Phobos now, but I do not know much about the "Face".
Therefore I do not talk about the Face in public. If I wanted to address the
Face in public I would first research it. Hoagland on the other hand does not
know much about the Phobos mission, did not choose to research it by all
appearances, but still chose to attack it. Good science? Sounds like Klassic
science to me.

Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Re: Weird Night On Halloween
Date: 18 Oct 91 16:43:00 GMT

>Let me guess, Wisconsin is not one of those states? I tried
>last week, and found nothing. Maybe I can get up a long wire
>and see if it's out there? Sounds interesting.
>
>Doing and research at this time?

Hi Pete,
        Good to hear from you again!
        I don't know for sure, but I doubt if Wisconsin is one of
the states that receives KOA -- but check it in the wee hours, a lot
of states that shouldn't get it do...could be "skip" or something.
He's had callers from Hawaii who're picking it up live and clear and
even from Europe, so you never know.  It's worth a try.
        I see Wisconsin does have an outlet for Bob Hieronimus'
show, though, so if it turns out you can't get KOA's weird night,
maybe you can catch Dr. Bob's -- Hieronimus on the weeknights and
Bob Oechsler on weekends (UFO and weird stuff).  The Hieronimus & Co
catalog says Wisconsin station WBKV in West Bend, 1470 AM, receives
the show.  (They also have a catalog of tapes of previous shows --
runs about 176 pages of "good stuff" -- which you can write for if
intersted.  $5 for the catalog and tapes are $6 each:  Hieronimus &
Co.    4801 Yellowwood Ave, Baltimore, MD 21209, FAX [phone].)
        What research am I doing? you ask...still trying to run down
this Ogden story...then back to the backlog!
        How're things going with you?
                                        ==Peggy==
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: conncoll.bitnet!gateh
Subject: Re: crop circle researchers
Date: 18 Oct 91 19:34:38 GMT

From: [e-mail]

Rick Moen writes:

+ The claim that these two old geezers were responsible for thousands of
+ circles all over the U.K. does indeed sound implausible, doesn't it?
+ I certainly don't buy it.  [Shocked silence descends on the crowd.]

After re-reading my original statement, I have to admit it does
sound a little weird. I guess what I found amusing was not that the
circle researchers scoffed at the idea that two men had created
thousands of circles, but rather that they apparently scoffed at the
idea that some of the circles (ie the 'genuine' ones) could be
hoaxed at all. The fact that one of the researchers (whose name I've
forgotten) proclaimed a hoaxed circle as genuine to boot was icing
on the cake.

I have to agree that it is virtually impossible for Bower and
Chorley to have created all the circles. However, the fact that they
were able to fabricate what was later declared to be a 'genuine'
circle with simple tools and a simple technique indicates to me that
there is a high degree of probability that many (possibly all) of the
circles are man-made. I must agree that it is strange (and tends to
smack of self-interest) that the researchers have spent a great deal
of time and effort investigating what have to be the less likely
(yet more sensational) possibilities for a solution to the circle
enigma.  The fact that they failed to discover such a simple method
as that of Bower and Chorley tells me they haven't tried very hard
to investigate techniques for producing the circles.

While my mind is still open on the topic, the Bower and Chorley
admission has done a great deal of damage, regardless of whether or
not it was an effort in disinformation.  There may still be circles
that apparently defy explanation, however the credibility and
caliber of what is supposed to be serious research into this
phenomena has been revealed to be distinctly suspect. (This is what
prompted my comparison with Pons & Fleishman and the cold fusion
debate.)

Thanks for the reply, Rick, and for making me rethink a little more
carefully.

Cheers!  - Gregg

Gregg TeHennepe       | Academic Computing Services         | This is the life
[e-mail] | Connecticut College, New London, CT | you have -V. Reid




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: wrs.com!davidj
Subject: Fragments of information
Date: 18 Oct 91 21:38:36 GMT

From: [e-mail] (David Jones)



I have been inundated with an incredible amount of information in a short period
of time and have this compulsion to share it with you.  Rather than go into long
detailed explanations, I will simply throw out fragments of information that
I have been given.  [brackets are my personal notations]

In my recent conversations with Wendelle Stevens (the premier UFO investigator
in the world) I asked him what, in his opinion, was the most important UFO
case currently going on right now.  He said the sightings in Puerto Rico.  Here
is a brief synopsis:  A man (who wishes to remain anonymous) was driving down a
road in the fog and, in order to see where he was going, was following a gully.
Suddenly, a [typical] grey alien jumped on the hood of his car.  He lost
consciousness.  When he awakened, he was inside a large garage of some sort with
many automobiles scattered all around.  He saw two grey aliens.  Again, he lost
consciousness.  When awakened next, he was in a room with 10 other Puerto Rican
people and several grey aliens.  A well-dressed Puerto Rican man entered and
began by telling the people that they each had a special mission to perform and
elaborated what that mission was to each of them.  The typical response was
similar to: 'Oh no!  I can't do that.  I don`t have the money.' or "I don't have
the knowledge to do such a thing'.  He lost consciousness again.  Over a period
of time, he was taken onboard several craft during which time he managed to take
crystal clear photographs of not only the exterior of the craft, but the
interior as well. Jorge Martin, a Puerto Rican UFO investigator [who will be at
the Dec.  Vegas International UFO Congress and who showed some of these photos
at the Tucson International UFO Congress- He made everyone turn off their video
cameras and insisted on no photos during the presentation] followed the story
with this man until just after he was found beaten almost to death, at the side
of a road, by United States` Secret Government agents.  [This seems to be a
departure from established Secret Government procedures.  This is sloppy.  This
would indicate to me that things have gotten so far out of control that they are
unable to deploy the necessary resources to contain the events as they unfold.]
The man has gone into hiding after his encounter [with these dark forces].
There are hundreds of civilian witnesses to the fact that several United States
Air Force F-14 jets were ``swallowed up'' by extraterrestrial spacecraft.  The
pilots have never been accounted for. In addition, there is a mountain, El Yonke
[sp??], where somewhere between several hundred and several thousand people have
seen scores of extraterrestrial spacecraft come and go from.  It seems to be
common news in Puerto Rico.  Has anyone else heard of this?  Is anyone from
Puerto Rico that is not a disinformation officer willing to comment on all this?

I met with three people that have been investigating and studying the crop
circles for many years: Richard Andrews, Busty Taylor and Leonie Star.  If you
have studied the crop circles, you will recognize the names.  The issue of the
hoaxers was dealt with swiftly.  The hoaxers are hoaxers and nothing more.
They had nothing to do with the creation of the crop circles.  [There is wide
speculation as to why they lied, but after they were proven to be liars, why
is it that the U.S. media, which quickly reported it as a hoax, did not retract
their statments, or even do their homework, when it was proven that these
guys were lying?]  The way in which they count the images has changed.  In the
past [1990 and before], each item in a pattern was counted separately. Thus, if
there was one large circle surrounded by four smaller ones, it would be counted
as five.  Therefore, there were about 1,000 last year.  This year, for the first
time, one pattern is counted as one, and not as five in the example.  Based upon
this new way of counting, there were somewhere between 250 and 300 this year in
Great Britain.  They have 16 ways in which to analyze the validity of a crop
circle.  They are keeping this to themselves so that liars such as the infamous
D & D will not be able to so easily pull a fast one again.  Two brief stories:
Some investigators surrounded a field with Viet Nam style trip wire, radar,
infrared detectors, motion detectors, infrared film, video cameras, sound
detection equipment and many people.  That night, fog descended on the field.
Nothing set off any equipment.  When the fog lifted about 5 or 6 am, there was
a pictogram. The Prime Minister lives in a place called Checkers [sp??] which is
surrounded for a radius of 1/4 mile with all kinds of high tech detection
equipment to prevent terrorists, etc.  Pictograms have appeared this year
inside this zone and without setting off any detection equipment [except for
equipment that Her Majesty's Secret Government may have to detect UFOs].  The
meaning and source of the makers of the pictograms was discussed. We expect that
they will become more complex next year.  In addition, the local MUFON
representative indicated that there were crop circles in Pleasonton and Modesto,
California [this last appeared within the past 2 weeks -- real or not real?].

I have a friend that just returned from visiting with Billy Meier in
Switzerland.
No, he is not in hiding.  Yes, he claims he is in contact with the Pleiadeans.
Ptah, more specifically.  Basically, he doesn't like most people.  He does not
like the Jews since he has discovered their true origins [and who YHVH really
was] and since they tried to kill him.  He doesn't like Americans because he
claims he was lied to and ripped off by them as well as having the U.S. Secret
Government try to kill  him.  [He has had at least 17 attempts on his life that
I know of].  Why, do you ask, that if Mossad wanted to murder him, is he still
alive?  Well, apparently, Billy has a higher power protecting him.  The
Christians have also tried killing him.  So, anyway, my own personal opinion is
that the contacts in the mid '70's are valid, but I think that Billy has flipped
out over time due to the incredible experience of it all.

I reviewed some of Gordon-Micheal Scallion's predictions for between now and
the year 1997. We are in for one hell of a ride! He correctly predicted the Loma
Prieta earthquake [2 year anniversary on the 19th].  In June he indicated that
the next series of earthquakes at 5.0-6.0 would be in Eureka.  Last month [Sept]
there were several in that range off the coast at Eureka.  He indicates that
the next series will be in the Bakersfield area on the order of 5.0 +/-.  Within
24 months of the Eureka quakes, California, as we know it, will begin to break
up. It will come to be known as the ``Isles of California''. The area to the
east of the Hayward fault from Eureka to Bakersfield will be inundated.
 San Francisco north will be like an island.  This will be the first of three
major changes for California.  There is much more, but why say anything until
we see how things go.  Oh yea, New York and Japan will go bye-bye.

Information from Fyfe, Alabama indicates that the 100+ year series of UFO
interactions with people in that small town continue.  The consensus is that
the good greys are following the evolution of earth human families over many,
many generations.  I understand that there is a man that publishes a newspaper
there with current stories about what is happening.  Anybody know how I can
contact this person/paper?

In one of my ongoing investigations, a man, through hypnosis, indicated that
the greys are taking cellular tissue from inside the abdomen every several
years to make a determination as to how the earth human cells age, so that
when the greys complete their cross-breeding program, they will have a
mix-n-match humanoid with longer life.  I wonder if, after they figure out how
to stop or slow the aging process, if they will share it will us earthlings that
have a propensity of dying at such an early age of 80 or 90?

Well, I've got lots more and I could go on but ... Yes, yes, I know, some of you
thank God that I'm stopping, others are on the edge of their seats wanting
more.  I try to answer all of my email, but it's tough when I get 60 to 80
pieces of email a day.  It's pretty well evenly divided between those that wish
I would go away and those that hear the ring of truth in my words and HAVE to
have more.  My purpose is to stimulate POSITIVE discussion.  I do not have time
for disinformation freaks or flame throwers.  I am interested in corresponding
with anyone that can shed light on any of the above.  Oh, yeah, I never said
that computers would take over the world, they already have.  :-)

By the way, did I mention that I have another friend that just spent the
afternoon with John Lear 2 days ago?  Well, maybe more on that later.

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: FOX Show
Date: 19 Oct 91 04:18:00 GMT

Well, that sure stunk.

Why can't someone do a regular, one-hour, in-depth series on UFOs and
related topics? And I mean do a GOOD job, with at least a touch of
objectivity?

"Hypnosis is gaining acceptance"? I'd say its just the opposite, we're
learning more and more about the pitfalls of hypnosis, the deeper we get
into abductions.

Gerald Anderson's story gibes with dozens of other witnesses? Since when?

They started to do a fairly credible job on the cover-up, and hit on the
disinformation angle, then they focus on Lazar, who is Disinformation
Suspect #1. Didn't anyone tell them there IS no Department of Naval
Intelligence? Vicki and Don, did these guys come to you for anything?

Fellow ParaNetters, be prepared for an onslaught of inquiries from your
friends and neighbors who never thought much about UFOs. All of a sudden
they're gonna be real interested, and that's good, but they're gonna say to
you, "Hey, what about that Lazar guy?", and that's bad. Because as soon as
they find out how squirrely his story is, they're gonna be real
disillusioned, and we may not get them back.

What a shame.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: BENTWATER,UK ON UNSOLVED MYSTE
Date: 18 Oct 91 11:35:00 GMT


 > this time. To have a delay would me the delay occurs
 > between the object casting the shadow and the object
 > projecting the shadow. At 1/1000 reduction in speed the
 > shadow would show no delay since it's traveling at 186
 > miles per second. Move it to 1/10,000 the speed of light
 > and it's still 18.6 miles per second, which turns out to be
 > roughly 66,960 miles per hour. To go just one step further
 > to 1.8 mps, it's still over 6,000 miles an hour.
 >

Pete, thanks for the calculations!  They're thought-provoking to
say the least.

I'm completely unable to reconcile these calcs. with the
observations of the Bentwaters witnesses (and many others in
other cases), but the observations are there.  Weird, or what!!??

 > Where does all that energy come from in a few feet, and
 > wouldn't you think the people standing that close to it
 > would be fast fried by some sort of energy radiation?

OK, true to form you have hit the nail precisely on the head
here.  Radiation passing thru such a drastic time warp would
theoretically be deadly.  Also, the thing shouldn't have been
visible at all, right?  I'll take the visibility thing first:

Given the time distortions you worked out -- why should
the Bentwaters object bear *any* resemblance to reality in our
dimension?  Indeed, the delay described in the shadow works out to
C / 370,000.  (2 seconds, guesstimate, right?)

With this distortion -- or even 1/10th of it -- the radiation
from the object should have fallen into deep, deep infrared.
Nothing should have been visible.

You're also right about the radiation, and if the Cash/Landrum
and Michalak (Falcon Lake, Ontario) cases are any guide, the
Bentwaters observers *should* have serious cause for concern.

Yet none of them reported symptoms similar to radiation sickness,
nor strange sunburning effects (Michalak had a third-degree
"sunburn" through several layers of clothing that looked
precisely like a *grating* of some kind).

Like I said, I can't reconcile these effects and your
calculations.  Heck, it's a major stretch just to imagine
technology like this, never mind deduce how it works.  I do,
however, allow the evidence for precisely this type of
technology -- the Michalak case is very compelling, in my
opinion, and the Cash/Landrum case is only less compelling
because someone came along and *removed the road* that was baked
by the radiation.

The debunkers go to the heart of the case by simply denying the
evidence, of course.  When all else fails ... assassinate the
character.  Easier to sandbag a witness/victim -- even
if they're totally unimaginative, like Steven Michalak or Mss.
Cash & Landrum -- than to admit their observations or radiation
burns.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 18 Oct 91 11:38:00 GMT


 > There was a "prediction", about 25 years ago that Jupiter
 > will became a second Sun in our solar system. As we all
 > know this has not yet happened (and I don't think it will)
 > - most of those so called "predictions" just don't seem to
 > work out.
 >
 > Have you heard this before and do you see any connection
 > with Bell's statement Steve?


Hi Vlad.  I've heard it before, but I understand that all of the
gaseous giant planets put together (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus)
are not massive enough to support self-sustaining fusion.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Special Rel
Date: 18 Oct 91 11:41:00 GMT


 > I maintain that to build an FTL ship you need some new physics - not
 > just a loophole in STR.
 >

I know!  That's what I'm saying!

Best,
  Clark


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Fragments Of (mis)Information
Date: 19 Oct 91 10:48:00 GMT


 >
 > From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
 >         * * *
 > In my recent conversations with Wendelle Stevens (the premier UFO
 > investigator in the world)  . . .

Wendelle Stevens is also the premier ex-convict in ufology.  Or
should we reserve that honor for Ed Walters?

 >                   * * *
 > I have a friend that just returned from visiting with Billy
 > Meier in Switzerland.
 > No, he is not in hiding.  Yes, he claims he is in contact
 > with the Pleiadeans.
 > Ptah, more specifically.  Basically, he doesn't like most
 > people.  He does not
 > like the Jews since he has discovered their true origins
 > [and who YHVH really
 > was] and since they tried to kill him.  . . .

Yeah, that's what happens to people who spend too much time with
Pleaidens:  First, they realize how much they dislike "The Jews"
and then people start plotting against them.  Hmmm ...  And I
thought that the idea of "Nazis from the Pleaides" started with
those lovely people at America West Publications.  Maybe Hitler
got his flying saucer specs from Pleaidens?

 > Why, do you ask, that if Mossad wanted to murder him, is he still
 > alive?  Well, apparently, Billy has a higher power protecting him.

The PLO?  (Pleaiden Lunatics' Organization)

 >  . . .  My purpose is to stimulate POSITIVE discussion.
 >  I do not have time for disinformation freaks or flame throwers.
 >               * * *

Oh yeah, right!  It's hard to tell that from reading your
message, though.

 >               * * *
 > By the way, did I mention that I have another friend that just spent the
 > afternoon with John Lear 2 days ago?  Well, maybe more on that later.

Does she know Bob Lazar?

                                    --  John

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Fox Show
Date: 19 Oct 91 11:08:00 GMT

Jim Speiser writes:

 > Well, that sure stunk.

Yeah, I knew we could count on Linda Howe for a top-quality show!

 > Why can't someone do a regular, one-hour, in-depth series
 > on UFOs and related topics? And I mean do a GOOD job, with
 > at least a touch of objectivity?

Uhh...  I guess there's no money in it.

 > Gerald Anderson's story gibes with dozens of other
 > witnesses? Since when?

Since they all died!

 > They started to do a fairly credible job on the cover-up,
 > and hit on the disinformation angle, then they focus on
 > Lazar, who is Disinformation Suspect #1. Didn't anyone tell
 > them there IS no Department of Naval Intelligence? Vicki
 > and Don, did these guys come to you for anything?

Probably just for Guy Kirkwood's phone number.

 >       * * *
 > What a shame.

Another wasted opportunity.  Too bad they didn't spend more time
on Belgium with more videos.  Too bad they didn't show the
Japanese video.  Too bad they didn't spend more time showing how
Doug & Dave's hoaxed "crop circle" looks compared with the
others.  Too bad that they had to spend so much time on Gulf
Breeze instead of the *real* sightings that took place in
Westchester County, N.Y.; Wytheville, Va.; or Pine Bush, N.Y.

More of the same!
                                    --  John

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: Our buddy takes flying lessons
Date: 19 Oct 91 17:37:21 GMT

This may be old to most of you, but I have a GIF of Phil Klass performing
a feat completely out of character, available for download from my bbs.

If any of you want it, feel free to call and d/l it.

The number is: [phone]

It is called --- UFOOCC.GIF and may be found in file area --- UFO Stuff.

Thanks,
Jim Graham

)
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Jupiter as Second Sun
Date: 19 Oct 91 23:00:21 GMT


 Hi Vlad,

Aha!  I just remembering reading in a  "National Geographic" some years ago in
a special issue called "The Planets" that "Jupiter could have been a second
sun, but that its nuclear fires were never ignited."  If it had, I guess we'd
be a binary solar system.  I'll see if I can find that magazine.
Regards,

Linda

--
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********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 492

                          Wednesday, October 23rd 1991

Today's Topics:

                                  Re: FOX Show
                                     Roswell
                                1991 Crop Circles
                               Basterfield article
                                    UFO shows
                                     Roswell
                               Re: Erol Torun/DMA
                                    Re: Micap
                     Crop Circles and spontaneous combustion
                         Our buddy takes flying lessons
                              Marfa lights/skeptics
                   National Geographic special on Crop Circles
                                     Hello!
                                1991 Crop Circles

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: FOX Show
Date: 19 Oct 91 23:14:40 GMT

Hi Jim.

Well, heck!  As you know, I didn't see that Fox show, but later when I was
driving over to see the CUFOS photo exhibit, I thought that maybe, just maybe,
a show like this could be useful in getting the subject before the general
public.  But if it has as many holes as you say,

 > They started to do a fairly credible job on the cover-up, and hit on the
 > disinformation angle, then they focus on Lazar, who is Disinformation Suspect
 > #1. Didn't anyone tell them there IS no Department of Naval Intelligence?
 > Fellow ParaNetters, be prepared for an onslaught of inquiries from your
 > friends and neighbors who never thought much about UFOs. All of a sudden
 > they're gonna be real interested, and that's good, but they're gonna say to
 > you, "Hey, what about that Lazar guy?", and that's bad. Because as soon as
 > they find out how squirrely his story is, they're gonna be real
 > disillusioned, and we may not get them back.
 > What a shame.


    Then, you are right -- the general public will now scoff at the whole
subject.  Most people do not have the interest nor time to read volumes of
literature, to sort out all the squabbles among ufologists, to JUST WAIT AND
SEE what will develop next!  They hear of ONE hoax (such as those Two Old
Coots in England) and they throw their hands up into the air, and say, "See?
It's all a hoax!"
     Yet, these same people will blindly believe other things without ever
investigating it or listening to an opposing argument.  I speak for myself
here who dared to challenge my family's religious beliefs.  But that's another
story...

Best,

Linda

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Musselwhite)
Subject: Roswell
Date: 21 Oct 91 02:55:00 GMT

I am new to Paranet, but I have found nothing in this section about
Roswell, the most dramatic example of what is happening and the most
dramatic example of the government (almost) screwing up.  What am I
missing?
--
Steve Musselwhite - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: 1991 Crop Circles
Date: 21 Oct 91 03:08:00 GMT

Michael Chorost, Director of North American Circle, P.O. Box 61144
Durham, NC 27715-1144 has just sent me a copy of his latest report
entitled _The Summer 1991 Crop Circles: The Data Emerges_,
published by the Fund for UFO Research, P.O. Box 277, Mt. Ranier,
MD 20712. What follows is extracted from his report.

Marshall Dudley believes he has identified yttrium-88 and bismuth-
205 in soil samples taken from the oval formation at Beckhampton,
U.K. formed on August 2/3, 1991. These are non-naturally occurring
short-lived isotopes, so their presence, once confirmed, will be of
great interest. (Y-88's half-life is 107 days; Bi-205's is 15.3
days.) The samples also registered sky-high alpha/beta particle
readings of 198% / 45% respectively when compared to control
samples. Dudley is a systems engineer for Tennelec/Nucleus of Oak
Ridge, TN, and manufactures gas flow counters, which are
instruments designed to detect extremely minute quantities of alpha
and beta radiation.

Dr. W.C. Levengood, a biophysicist living in Michigan, specializing
in plant and seed development, has also made some remarkable
discoveries. One was that the growth nodes on plants taken from
within authentic circles had become significantly enlarged when
compared to control plants. He hypothesizes that some energy input,
possibly heat, caused the cells in those nodes to swell, causing
lasting but not fatal damage. Mechanically hoaxed circles did not
exhibit the same effect. Secondly, Levengood discovered a high
incidence (40%) of seed malformation in plants taken from the
Newton St. Loe formation, whereas virtually all control seeds were
normal. Thirdly, microscopic examination of the node cells revealed
that the pits in their cell walls had become larger and more
visible. This is what Levengood hypothesizes would occur if
something heated the water inside the cells so rapidly that the
cell walls swelled and forced the pits to expand.

Michael also mentions the plasma vortex quintuplet sets that I have
observed, photographed/video-taped, and previously posted
applicable documentation about on this echo.

There is much more information and substantiation in Michaels
report, which I would be happy to share with those interested.
Michael's conclusions are summarized as follows:
1) The phenomenon induces radiation anomalies. 2) It appears the
plants are heated both rapidly and briefly. 3) Plants are sometimes
scorched, particularly grasses. 4) Plant cell walls swell,
elongating cell wall pits, leaving "stretch marks". 5) Induced
developmental anomalies in seeds. 6) The circles may correlate with
aquifers (water saturated rocks such as chalk and limestone) 7) The
circles do correlate, at least grossly, with ancient megaliths. 8)
The quintuplet may be artificially duplicable. 9) Hoaxes may be
able to be distinguished from genuine circles with laboratory
tests. 10) Some formations may represent or symbolize known
objects. 11) The circles do correlate geographically with some well
documented sightings of unidentified luminous aerial objects.

Thanks Michael, for your admirable achievement...Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Basterfield article
Date: 21 Oct 91 03:09:00 GMT


Hi Keith, and many thanks for your article _UFO Abductees and
Contactees: Psychopathology or Fantasy Proneness?. I haven't had a
chance to read it yet, but will soon, and I'll be back with
questions and comments.

In exchange, I am air-mailing to you tomorrow the latest updated
analyses of the 1991 crop circle season. I think you'll find the
data most intriguing.

Thanks again for your generosity and interest.

Regards,

Sheldon
--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: UFO shows
Date: 21 Oct 91 03:10:00 GMT


NEW TELEVISED UFO ABDUCTION ACCOUNT
___________________________________

BROADCAST DATE: Friday, 27-Oct-91
BROADCAST TIME: 9:00 P.M. (EST)
NETWORK: USA (cable)
PROGRAM TITLE: "Beyond Reality"
STARRING: Shari Belafonte

DETAILS: "Ten years ago, Jenny Lambert's
mother was abducted by a UFO.
Now, they're back."

COMMENTS: Don't expect too much, folks



CROP CIRCLE SPECIAL
____________________________________

BROADCAST DATE: Sunday, 24-Nov-91
BROADCAST TIME: 9:00 P.M. (EST)
NETWORK: WTBS (cable)
PROGRAM TITLE: "National Geographic Explorer"

DETAILS: Mike Chorost acted as technical
consultant. He says it's well done, from
an objective perspective.

COMMENTS: Watch it!

-=Sheldon=-
 ---
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Mike Keithly)
Subject: Roswell
Date: 21 Oct 91 06:27:00 GMT

Ok Steve, go into the the files area and read this file"Roswell.upd" under
the read a textfile online.  That is current or ask around you will get a
response on that..
                        Take Care
                        Mike Keithly

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: Erol Torun/DMA
Date: 14 Oct 91 20:27:59 GMT


 CM> they did their jobs so well.  As for the rest of the peranent
 CM> Intelligence community, I continue to think that they are potentially
 CM> more dangerous to our own liberties than they are to most of our
 CM> adversaries.

Naw...just watch the Supreme Court in the coming years ahead, now that
Bush has them all sewn up.

Or just look at the particulars of those ramrodded 'Anti-Crime' bills
which will make your 'liberties' looked like Germany of the '30s. :(


...Why blame Spooks?  They just follow orders.


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: Micap
Date: 14 Oct 91 20:31:56 GMT


 BJ> Steve,

 BJ> Duh, I don't know why he doesn't just call, in fact I believe he does
 BJ> occasionally call, but mentioned to mesomething about how neat it
 BJ> would be to get the echo 'live'. I am a mere babe in the woods in this
 BJ> FIDO, net, stuff.

Live!?  After all we do to make Memorex tape BETTER than live??  :-)

 BJ>  --- RemoteAccess 0.03+

Hey...why the outdated software?  Try RA 1.01 or QBBS 2.75 or SBBS 1.12



--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: doc.imperial.ac.uk!aixssc.ibm.co.uk!rob
Subject: Crop Circles and spontaneous combustion
Date: 21 Oct 91 14:56:15 GMT

From: Robert Trevelyan <[e-mail]>


Does any one have any information on human spontaneous combustion?
I have just heard the UK BUFORA message number 98 in which Jenny Randles
likens the the energy of such strange events to the energy which is
associated with the creation of crop circles. She even asked if anyone
has any information on spontaneous combustion to contact BUFORA.
I am very interested in this as Jenny Randles has always seemed to have
been in the plasma vortex camp, is this a change of heart.

( BUFORA run a recorded message service call UFOcall on 0898-121886 )
( usually a load of waffle but sometimes is interesting.            )

The Doug and Dave hoax was also mentioned and was claimed to have been
started back in about 1976 in Australia and from what I can remember the
Tuly incedent was claimed by them. We all know that this is rubbish but
I am amazed that no-one has challenged D+D yet on this or any of the
other claims they have made with no proof.

It looks as if the desired effect has happened, get a couple of people
to own up to creating the crop circle phenomenon, blast details of it
across the world on the front page of some newspaper, and never come
forward with proof. The majority of people who were skeptical about
the phenomenon have now dismissed the whole thing as a hoax .

I and many other circle researchers are trying to disprove D+D's claims
but it is very difficult to disprove something without exact details of
the circles they claim to have created.
To my knowledge D+D have claimed about 200 but there is no list of which
two hundred.

The farce continues...

Regards, Robert
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                          DISCLAIMER:                              |
| The views expressed in this document are not a corporate view     |
| nor reflect the views of my employer by any means but are my      |
| own personal views on this subject .                              |
|                                                                   |
| Robert Trevelyan   UKnet: [e-mail] |
| AIX Communications    VNET: TREVELR at NHBVM7     |
|      Voice: [phone]     |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Our buddy takes flying lessons
Date: 21 Oct 91 02:50:54 GMT

In a message to All <19 Oct 91 10:37> Jim Graham wrote:

 JG> This may be old to most of you, but I have a GIF of Phil Klass performing
 JG> a feat completely out of character, available for download from my bbs.

Ah-HA! I'm glad to see my favorite deKlassified photo making the rounds...

Jim


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Marfa lights/skeptics
Date: 21 Oct 91 17:54:18 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

I'm passing along the following two messages about the Marfa lights from the
Skeptics discussion group.

********************************************************************************

From: [e-mail]@SMTP@CRDGW2
Sender: SKEPTIC Discussion Group <[e-mail]>
From: Jim Kutz <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: The Marfa Lights
X-To:         [e-mail]
To: Multiple recipients of list SKEPTIC <[e-mail]>

Stan Schwarz writes:


+  Does anyone know anything about the Marfa Lights?


All  I could  find was  the enclosed  article, written by amateur
astronomer  James  Long  of  the  Georgia  Skeptics,  who says he
observed the lights. I found the  article on a disk circulated by
our Network of Local Skeptic Groups  about six months ago, and am
passing  it along  without comment.  An address  for the  Georgia
Skeptics is appended.


           Jim Kutz ([e-mail])



=================   Article by James Long  =====================


On Sunday of Memorial Day weekend, 1990, Jeff and I (both college
graduates with engineering degrees) went to the city of Marfa, Texas,
to see the well known Marfa Lights.  Several reputable news
broadcasts, including the Texas Eight Reporter (a state-wide TV show)
are supposed to have mentioned the Lights, but I can't vouch for this.

The Marfa Lights have been reported since the 1880's. Apparently, the
majority of the sightings have been along State Highway, a two lane
road leading east from the city.  The friendly clerk of a rather
shabby motor lodge in the city supplied us with directions to the
'viewing area'.  This turned out to be a parking lot on the south side
of the road, roughly ten miles east of the city.  The Texas Highway
Department has installed some fifty feet of parking area and a large
permanent highway marker, indicating the viewing site.

The country-side there is an extremely flat plain, estimated at the
time to be about 20 miles across (see the picture).  Rather abruptly,
a ring of mountains (probably about two-three hundred feet high) rose
around the edge of the plain.  The only vegetation on the plain were
scrub brush and small cacti, no more than a couple of feet tall.
Although visiblity across the plain was unblocked and excellent, there
was the major disadvantage of completely losing any sense of distance.
Therefore, most distances given here are estimates.


   ^  North          ====================XXX=================  Highway
  / \                %%                    Viewing stand.
   |                 %%                /
   |              C  %%               /
                  h  %%%             /
                  i   %%            / Estimated to be about
                  n  M %%          /   twenty miles, maybe less.
                  a  n  %%        /
                  t  t   %%%     /
                  i  s    %%%
                           %%% R - Radio antenna light.
                             %%%%
                               %%%%
                                 %%

Jeff and I arrived at the viewing site about one hour before sunset.
At that time, there were no cars present, except for mine.  We had
brought along some dinner, and we cooked it, while waiting for
darkness.  Well before sunset, at least fifteen cars pulled up and
parked.  A few people brought chairs, and nearly everyone had
binoculars.  One middle-aged lady parked immediately beside my car,
and shortly afterwards joined us in conversation.

The lady said that she had been at the viewing site the night before,
as well, and gave us a few pointers on what to watch for. She pointed
out where a red antenna tower light would be seen (not visible at all
in the day-light), and said that the Lights appeared near the tower,
and could be seen dimly moving clockwise along the mountain.  She also
said that some were visible far to the north-west.

About a half hour after sunset, the tower light became visible in the
darkness.  A few people began questioning aloud if 'that's one of the
Lights', but were quickly assured that it was not.

However, within just a few minutes (ten at the most), a bright white
(not red like the tower) point of light appeared at the base of the
mountains near the tower, and could obviously be seen to move
clockwise along the mountains.  After about ten seconds, (and already
about one third of the way along the mountains) the light disappeared.
In less than a minute, another light appeared and repeated the motions
of the first.

This turned out to be just the beginning.  From then until midnight
there was a nearly constant stream of Lights.  There were two major
patterns visible to the eye.  The first pattern was to appear near the
southern edge of the mountains (near the tower), and move about
halfway to the road and vanish.  The second pattern was to appear
about two/thirds of the way to the road (or closer), and to stay
motionless.  With both patterns, however, there was still a wide range
of variation.  The moving Lights traveled at different speeds
(although movement was always easily visible to the eye), whereas the
stationary Lights tended to blink on and off at regular intervals,
before disappearing.

The Lights themselves appeared about equal in brightness to the tower
light (or perhaps somewhat brighter).  They never appeared to be
anything other than mere points of light.  They appeared quite similar
to distant car headlights, but were always single to the naked eye.
Car headlights eventually were ruled out as a cause, since reports
have occured for over a century.  In addition, the map provided to us
showed no indication of a road on the near side of the mountain.

The lady beside us provided a great deal of entertainment.  She
posessed a rather large set of binoculars and kept up a running
commentary of the 'antics' of the Lights.  Comments, such as, "That
one there is now rounding the bush!', and 'It's coming straight at
us!' kept us amused for a great deal of the night.  With our
binoculars, we still could not distinguish any details at that
distance.

Jeff and I had been attending the Texas astronomy party, so I had my
eight-inch diameter Celestron telescope with me.  For over an hour, I
was too fascinated by the Lights to even remember the telescope, but
eventually I brought it out of the car and set it up.  With this
telescope, the Lights were resolvable into obvious fuzzy round balls,
apparently several feet in diameter.

The telescope verified several observations, and provided several more
discoveries.  The most significant observation was that the lights
truly were all the way to the mountains.  The view through the
telescope allowed each viewer to verify that the lights were passing
behind rocks and cliffs ON the mountain side.  Indeed, many, but by no
means most, of the blinking observed was due to a Light passing behind
a rock and being eclipsed by it. The light shed from the Marfa Light
was more than enough to illuminate the rock wall behind the light.
Rocks to the front were obvious from their silhouettes.

A fascinating discovery from the telescope was that several of the
balls were doublets.  Often, a single light would appear, and about
fifteen to thirty seconds later, a second, identical light appeared
right beside the first.  Indistinguishable with the naked eye, these
balls were obvious pairs through the telescope.  These balls would
then begin varying in brightness, one going dim while the other
brightened, and then the first brightening while the second dimmed.
After eight to ten cycles, the balls would usually split up, and
separate into two naked eye pairs.  This easily ruled out car
headlights.

One item I found rather disturbing was that whenever another car
arrived (people kept arriving for several hours into the night), the
watchers already present acted like tour guides for the occult. The
newcomers were quickly treated to a lecture by people that had
received the same lecture themselves no more than twenty minutes
earlier.  To my small dismay, Jeff and I fell quite naturally into the
'pro' mode.  Having been at the viewing site since before dark, we
made a point of describing all we had seen that night.  We never,
thankfully, went so far as the lady next to us, who eagerly
attribruted conscious thought to the movements.

About midnight, the lights tapered off and came to a halt.  In all,
there had been lights nearly constantly visible for about four hours.
Rarely was there NOT a light visible, and a good deal of the time,
three, four or sometimes five lights were seen at once.

On the ride back to the campsite, we tried to check the distance to
the mountains.  However, after driving about eight miles, our road
turned off to the north.  We estimated that we had come less than half
way to the mountains.

In short, watching the Lights was fascinating.  All of the suggested
natural causes were quickly ruled out from their appearences. However,
I eventually decided that I really didn't care what caused them.  They
were pretty to watch, and provided me with my most interesting
vacation in years.

                                     James Long, Georgia Skeptics

=================================================================

For further information, contact the Georgia Skeptics through the
Astronomical Society of the Atlantic BBS at (404) 985-04-8, or
telephone [phone] and leave a message as to how you can
be contacted, or write:

     Georgia Skeptics
     P.O. Box 654
     Norcross, Georgia  30091

*****************************************************************************

From: [e-mail]@SMTP@CRDGW2
Sender: SKEPTIC Discussion Group <[e-mail]>
From: Hal Finney <ghsvax![e-mail]>
Subject:      The Marfa Lights
X-To:         [e-mail]
To: Multiple recipients of list SKEPTIC <[e-mail]>

I spent the summer of 1976 living with my parents in Midland, Texas.
I heard about the Marfa lights from co-workers, and decided to drive
down to see them.  I only went once and just was there for a few
hours, so this isn't a comprehensive observation by any means.

My observations were not at all in accord with those of James Long of
the Georgia Skeptics.  Now, I may not have been at exactly the same
viewing location.  I was on the state highway east of Marfa, as was
Long.  And the view was the same, looking south across a basically
flat plain to a range of low mountains many miles away.  But I may
have been at a different spot on the highway.  I just picked a turnoff
area on my own, without having received specific directions about any
particular place.  At that time the lights were mostly a local
phenomenon and hadn't received as much publicity as they have now.

The lights I observed differed in two ways from what Long saw.  First,
they were stationary; and second, they were exactly on the horizon.
Each light was white, like a headlight seen from many miles away.  But
they didn't move.  A light would appear, be visible for a minute or
two, and then fade away over several seconds.  A few minutes later
another light would appear at a different spot.  Sometimes there might
be two or three lights visible at once.

By the horizon, I mean the visual line between the mountains and the
sky.  That is where all of the lights appeared.  There was no way to
judge the distance to the lights but it was natural to assume that
they came from at or beyond the mountains.  They did not appear at the
base of the mountains and certainly didn't appear on the plain between
the mountains and the road, as the lights Long saw did.

My feeling at the time was that this was an effect of atmospheric
refraction, perhaps caused by a layer of warmer or cooler air near the
ground.  I felt that this was a kind of mirage, in which we were
seeing a distant source of light that was being refracted and focussed
as it passed grazingly over the mountains.

Because of the fact that the lights lasted a minute or two, and
because they are reported to have appeared for over a hundred years,
my feeling was that I was seeing focussed starlight.  I had also been
told that the lights would not appear if it was overcast.  Due to the
earth's rotation, stars would be continually rising, and at different
times it seemed possible that different stars would be in position to be
made visible by an atmospheric effect.  Perhaps the topography of the
mountains was such that some kind of lensing could occur.  Rising
stars would then move through the focus points of the many different
possible lensing positions along the mountains.

Whether this explanation is correct or not, I am puzzled by the
differences from what Long saw.  Also, Unsolved Mysteries did a show on
the Marfa lights last year, and I felt that what they showed was
identical to what I saw.  Their lights were stationary and on the
horizon.  They certainly didn't move and didn't appear partway between
the mountains and the roads.  I wonder if Long is the victim of some
kind of local prank?  Either that, or what I saw (and what the people
from Unsolved Mysteries saw) weren't the real Marfa lights.

Hal Finney
ghsvax![e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: hpvclmd.vcd.hp.com!miked
Subject: National Geographic special on Crop Circles
Date: 21 Oct 91 19:35:38 GMT

From: Mike Dobbs <[e-mail]>

The National Geographic Society will present a special on the crop
circle phenomenon on November 24 at 9pm EST/6pm PST on the cable
network TBS or WTBS.  The NGS did considerable filming of the crop
circles this past summer.  Those of you who subscribe to National
Geographic magazine will find that they are advertising this show
on the slip cover for the issue that was sent out last week.

--------
  Mike Dobbs        /    Internet: [e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Dritsas)
Subject: Hello!
Date: 22 Oct 91 06:55:00 GMT

Hello there everyone!  I am a new user here, and I would just like to
introduce myself!  I am calling a little north of the border, from Toronto,
Ontario (CANADA).  Anyways, I'm glad to be a member, it looks like a
spectacular system.

  Well, now the only thing that would be nice was if I lived in Colarado, so
I didn't have to pay any long distance charges!

Well, gota go, running out of time!  See you all later!

Jim D.

--
Jim Dritsas - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: 1991 Crop Circles
Date: 21 Oct 91 06:50:09 GMT


 SW> samples. Dudley is a systems engineer for Tennelec/Nucleus of Oak
 SW> Ridge, TN, and manufactures gas flow counters, which are
 SW> instruments designed to detect extremely minute quantities of alpha
 SW> and beta radiation.

Is this the same Marshall Dudley who wrote the program "DoorWay"? He also
lives in Tennessee... Interesting, I just spoke with him on the phone.


 SW> Dr. W.C. Levengood, a biophysicist living in Michigan, specializing
 SW> in plant and seed development, has also made some remarkable
 SW> discoveries. One was that the growth nodes on plants taken from
 SW> within authentic circles had become significantly enlarged when
 SW> compared to control plants. He hypothesizes that some energy input,
 SW> possibly heat, caused the cells in those nodes to swell, causing
 SW> lasting but not fatal damage. Mechanically hoaxed circles did not
 SW> exhibit the same effect. Secondly, Levengood discovered a high

How were they able to tell the difference between "real" and mechanically
hoaxed circles?

 SW> scorched, particularly grasses. 4) Plant cell walls swell,
 SW> elongating cell wall pits, leaving "stretch marks". 5) Induced
 SW> developmental anomalies in seeds. 6) The circles may correlate with
 SW> aquifers (water saturated rocks such as chalk and limestone) 7) The
 SW> circles do correlate, at least grossly, with ancient megaliths. 8)
 SW> The quintuplet may be artificially duplicable. 9) Hoaxes may be
 SW> able to be distinguished from genuine circles with laboratory
 SW> tests. 10) Some formations may represent or symbolize known
 SW> objects. 11) The circles do correlate geographically with some well
 SW> documented sightings of unidentified luminous aerial objects.

 SW> Thanks Michael, for your admirable achievement...Sheldon

Sounds very interesting, and finally, something solid along the lines of
"changes in cell structure!"

Jim

--
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 493

                           Sunday, October 27th 1991

Today's Topics:

        Possible FTL signals generated by Marquette University Scientists
                     Crop Circles And Spontaneous Combustion
                                  Re: FOX Show
                          Re: WEIRD NIGHT ON HALLOWEEN
                       Re: BENTWATER,UK ON UNSOLVED MYSTE
                               The End of freedom
                                   FPP article
                                    Implants
                                Pysch hypotheses
                              Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
                                1991 Crop Circles
                                Pysch Hypotheses
                     Crop Circles and spontaneous combustion
                         Possible FTL signals generav>c
                                 Position Paper
                              Possible FTL signals

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: UNHH.UNH.EDU!K_MACARTHUR1
Subject: Possible FTL signals generated by Marquette University Scientists
Date: 22 Oct 91 21:32:06 GMT

From: [e-mail]


     I have read three articles in legitimate journals of the microwave/RF
profession of efforts by a George Giakos and a Prof. T. Koryu Isii of Marquette
University in Milwaukee describing successful transmission of a radio wave
(non-TEM mode) at high frequency (from 8-10 Gigahertz) at speeds exceeding the
normal intrinsic value 'c'.  As absurd as it sounds at the outset, the theory
it is based on is valid.   In electromagnetic wave propagation, there is a
quantity called Phase Velocity, which can be greater than light, but no one
until now has believed that you could do anything with it because no energy
packets (of photons, etc.) could go faster than 'c'.  This mathematical oddity
in the theory has been ignored experimentally after a few attempts failed to
disprove the theory.
 Giakos and Ishii (mis-spelled above--no editor, sorry) constructed a
normal x-band waveguide and sent pulse-modulated microwaves thru them in non-
TEM mode (having to do with magnetic and electric field parameters of the light
itself) to a reciever a known distance away.   What they found was that if
you measured the velocity of the modulated pulse, you get v>c.  They even did
it with an open air transmitter.    At 0 degrees (dead straight online), the
velocity was c, but as you moved the angle of the receiver by degrees, the
velocity increased.  They report velocities of the pulses up to 5.0 e+08 m/sec
which is faster than light's 3.0 e+08 m/sec.   My question is, if light is not
going faster than its painstakingly defined value, what kind of particle/wave
is making the antenna oscillate with the pulse?  Is it some kind of super-
luminal pseudo-photon (the infamous tachyon), or what?   I have heard nothing
about this research in the normal press (science news, scientific american,
etc.).   I got copies of the articles from the author, who has an e-mail
address (maybe I can find it).   For reference, the articles appear in:

 Microwave and Optical Technology Letters, vol. 4, No.2, Jan. 20, 1991
and      '           '       "         "      vol. 4, No.3  Feb 1991

as well as Microwaves and RF (magazine), August 1991, p.115


 I am not an expert in microwave physics, I deal mainly in computer
programming for cosmic ray research, so I have no idea if this has already
been shot down or is being ignored.   I can't find any flaws in the math,
and don't know enough to make quantitative statements about the experiments.
For what its worth, they claim the error is less than 0.1 %, small enough to
prove they are getting values of signal propagation > c.   Interesting at
any rate (no pun intended, but laugh if you want).  :)

      Korac MacArthur
      UNH Space Science Center
      [e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Crop Circles And Spontaneous Combustion
Date: 23 Oct 91 03:56:00 GMT

Hi Robert,

     In regards to your ball lightning question, a rather
interesting case was reported last year at the 1990 Ball Lightning
Conference, held in Budapest. The incident took place on May 25,
1989, in a field by the roadside near Kerecseud, a village 65 miles
from Budapest. The victim was a 27 year old engineer WITHIN WHOSE
BODY, it is conjectured, ball lightning formed. The man had stopped
his car and walked to the edge of a field about 30 feet distant to
urinate. Suddenly, his wife, who had remained behind in the car,
saw that her husband was surrounded by a blue light. He opened his
arms wide and fell to the ground. His wife ran to him, noticing
that one of his tennis shoes had been torn off. Amazingly, his wife
was able to stop a passing bus that was filled with medical doctors
returning from a meeting. Unhappily, they immediately pronounced
the man dead.
     At the autopsy, a hole was found in the man's heel where the
shoe had been. The lungs were torn and damaged, and the stomach and
belly were carbonized! This is indicative of internal combustion,
just as the blue light is suggestive of atmospheric electricity,
while the damaged heel and shoe are denotative of electrical
grounding. No other effects of local atmospheric electricity were
noticed. The sky was overcast and conditions possibly suitable for
a thunderstorm. The couple had earlier passed through a
thunderstorm when 35 miles away, but at the site of the tragedy it
was dry and rainless. Do you feel this incident may help to explain
the cases of so called "human spontaneous combustion"?


Thanks again and best of luck,

Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: FOX Show
Date: 23 Oct 91 03:25:00 GMT

Looked to me like that show was basically put together months and
months ago and then put on hold.  The best that can be said is, It
could have been worse!

--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: WEIRD NIGHT ON HALLOWEEN
Date: 21 Oct 91 17:16:56 GMT

Oh good, I printed the message, and West Bend is North of Milwaukee, but so
am I, I should be able to find that station. Then I'll have to call and find
out what time the air the shows. Thanks much.

The OO is interesting and after reading some of the messages it seems like
most of the information is comming from one source? It would be nice to have
some validation of the claims from another source.

How are things going? HA HA! I warned you not to ask that question, because
I'll tell the truth. Linda Bird asked me and I sent out about a five page
netmail response. I also included that if she didn't reply I'd understand
why. I'm still insane as usual, and smiling as they carry me away to the poor
house...

Nothing paranormal happening around here. The show on Friday attracted much
interest. I'm trying to get some of the people to come over and read the
Paranet areas, so they can get some better information. I had a guy call on
the phone and tell me just about everything they showed (I've got it on tape,
but didn't watch yet) and it sounds like the best cases which we read and
write about on Paranet from day to day.
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: BENTWATER,UK ON UNSOLVED MYSTE
Date: 21 Oct 91 17:25:49 GMT

The Cash/Landrum incident update was very interesting, since the two of them
had physical reactions to something.
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: The End of freedom
Date: 22 Oct 91 09:57:00 GMT

In a message to Clark Matthews <14 Oct 91 13:27> Steve Rose wrote:

 > CM> they did their jobs so well.  As for the rest of the peranent
 > CM> Intelligence community, I continue to think that they are potentially
 > CM> more dangerous to our own liberties than they are to most of our
 > CM> adversaries.

 SR> Naw...just watch the Supreme Court in the coming years ahead, now that
 SR> Bush has them all sewn up.

Hi Steve.  Well, I'm not sure I can speak for what the court will do -- they've
surprised us in the past.  Besides, the tendency toward tyranny/oppression in
this country is not by fiat, but by slow degrees.  (Or by quiet *decrees*??)
It started during WWII and has continued through this day.  Executive orders,
the worst of which are classified (so they're not even published in the
Congressional Record), have created a virtual "star chamber" anyway.  If you
run afoul of parts of the hidden gov't -- you can quite literally disappear
without a trace.  Today.

Anyway, I believe that what we REALLY need now is a complete, open
Congressional investigation of all activities of all agencies, bureaus, or
Executive entities that have an intelligence/security function, *or who use
contractors or interface with other bodies* for intelligence/security functions.

The Russians are doing it (they *are* withholding info on certain cases,
notably the Pope plot, because of the "national embarassment" factor.  But
PRIVATELY, the former KGB generals will discuss even these sensitive matters.)
 Why can't we do it too?

In terms of individual liberty, it seems to me that NOTHING COULD BE MORE
MEANINGFUL these days than "Secret Police Disarmament".

Here we are, watching in amazement as KGB generals openly discuss what their
sinister service *did* and *didn't* do over the last 50 years -- when we really
don't have the foggiest notion what our own intelligence/state repression
agencies are doing *now*.  Moreover, there are *so many* such American agencies
-- most of them military, so they can operate without restriction in the U.S.
-- and they all have classified, or "black" budgets.

Pres. G.H.W. Bush has moved to unilaterally disarm part of our nuclear forces
-- but I notice it's business as usual for the NSC, CIA, NSA, NRO, DIA, AFOSI,
ONI, and God only knows what else -- and let's not forget their contractors and
clients.  All these nasty, black-budget, black-bag fiefdoms together probably
pose a greater threat to our freedom than the Russians ever did.

 SR> Or just look at the particulars of those ramrodded 'Anti-Crime' bills
 SR> which will make your 'liberties' looked like Germany of the '30s. :(

 SR> ...Why blame Spooks?  They just follow orders.

That's what really bothers me -- we can *count* on them to follow their orders!
 By contrast, when it came to the clutch last August, the KGB apparatchiks *did
not* follow their orders.  With a proud history of 70 years of savage terrorism
and repression behing them -- they couldn't bring themselves to live up to it!
  Their instincts were astonishingly humane.  Watching the coup fail was as
gratifying as it was astounding.

But our own apparatchiks?  You BET they'll follow their orders.  The underlings
may be incapable of conscious choice:  Remember the disturbing little stories
coming out of Groom Lake, Tejon Ranch, and other places? -- you know, the stuff
about guards "who talked like robots" and cadres of soldiers forced to drink
"pine" while undergoing indoctrination?  So bear with me a while longer, and
let me use my "imagination" a bit:


Imagine a corps of military enlistees selected because they have no close
relatives -- perhaps these people are somehow further tested to identify who is
susceptable to intensive hypnotic/chemical conditioning. These would be people
who won't be missed -- with no troublesome wives or parents to insist on seeing
them and note drastic personality changes.

Imagine these people being carefully vetted and then culled out of the military
manpower pool and directed to units where they can be turned into human
monstrosities that would make Stalin, Beria, and Hitler envious.  Through
careful concealment of funding, total control of certain geographic areas,
absolute secrecy, and "perverted science" (a fine old phrase originated by
Churchill, to describe the Nazis), this could be done.

So many of these people may not be able to help themselves.  In fact, they may
be beyond help entirely.

But the people on top?  They know exactly what they're doing.

Depressed,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: FPP article
Date: 19 Oct 91 16:50:00 GMT

To: Dave Webb
Dave I'll despatch a copy of my co-authored FPP article off by
airmail, as soon as possible. Should be with you in about 10-14 days.
Regards, Keith.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Implants
Date: 19 Oct 91 16:52:00 GMT

Peggy, in a message on 12th Oct you mentioned a radio show which
included a man who talked about a personal abduction and implant.
Do you by chance have any further details on him?

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Pysch hypotheses
Date: 19 Oct 91 17:18:00 GMT

Over the years as a lay person I've researched a number of possible
links between main stream psychology and UFOs. Back in the early 80's
I documented in a variety of articles in UFO journals, the topic of
imagery on the sleep/awake interface-hypnagogic and hypnopompic
imagery. It does seem to offer some explanation for certain bedroom
location events in the realms of not only UFO events but also such
things as ghosts. Most out of body experiences also occur during this
interface.
Following the imagery trail, I've then looked in fantasy-prone
personality research which is going on in main stream psychology
journals, and with the assistance of sociologist Bob Bartholomew, who
was in Australia , but who is currently in New York, I've suggested
links/parallels to abduction cases. Whitley Strieber's experiences
documented in Communion and Transformation could be explainable in
terms of known pyshological processes or in an "alien/dimensional"
sense-"you pays your money and  you takes your pick." From what I
know of Striber's recent statements about what he now thinks
abductions are all about, falls more in line with a psychological
viewpoint than an "alien" one. (Ifanyone reading this has a copy of
Striber's last Newsletter where he spells this out, I'd appreciate
someone either posting it verbatum or perhaps sending me a copy at PO
Box 302, Modbury North, South Australia, Australia 5092. Thanks.)
I also feel that we should pay a lot more attention to recent work on
multiple personality research. I understand that there have been some
case reports where one personality is able to exhibit physical
symptoms such as skin rashes, and literally the next second when a
different personality "comes out" the skin rashes disappears. Here we
seem to have a temporary ability to display physical marks on the
human body. Stigmata cases also exhibit temporary or more permanent
physical marks on the body. The question for abduction research is ,
is it possible to explain the physical marks on abductee's bodies in
terms of known psychological processes-do this research first before
suggesting "alien" intervention and then if you can't explain it this
way, there would be a much stronger case for an extraterrestrial
origin. Loads of resarch needed!

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Re: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 22 Oct 91 07:25:00 GMT


 > Hi Vlad.  I've heard it before, but I understand that all of the
 > gaseous giant planets put together (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus) are
 > not massive enough to support self-sustaining fusion.

Hi Clark,
Thanks for that info. I am curious...do you know what is a smallest
mass required to support self-sustaining fusion. Supposing there was
a planet large enough to support self-sustaining fusion, how would
that fusion start?

Vlad

--
Vladimir Godic - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: 1991 Crop Circles
Date: 24 Oct 91 00:14:00 GMT


 In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <20-Oct-91>, Jim Speiser wrote:


 JS> Is this the same Marshall Dudley who wrote the program "DoorWay"? He
 JS> also lives in Tennessee... Interesting, I just spoke with him on the
 JS> phone.

     Another strange coincidence. I don't know for certain if it's the
     same person, but I'll certainly find out.


 JS> How were they able to tell the difference between "real" and
 JS> mechanically hoaxed circles?

     That's easy....it's the ones *without* the gray hairs!

 JS> Sounds very interesting, and finally, something solid along the lines of
 JS> "changes in cell structure!"

     Yes, but the real test will be if these preliminary findings
     hold true with at least some degree of consistency. As you might
     know, at the 1991 MUFON symposium Mike Chorost was talking about
     the significantly lower alpha particle readings in a Tennessee
     circle. Now, were looking at "sky high" readings in the British
     oval. So, we've still got problems.



 JS> (Quick 9:1010/100.666)
                       ^^^

     Using a point address of "666" - Very interesting!
     Scott Corder warned me about this. <g>


 Take care,

 Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Pysch Hypotheses
Date: 24 Oct 91 00:53:00 GMT



 Hello Keith,

 I will air-mail a copy of Strieber's "Farewell address" to you
 tomorrow, 24-Oct-91. BTW, I mailed the new crop circle
 material to you at the UFORA address, so please be sure to pick
 this up. The Strieber material will go to the Modburry North address
 as posted.

 I agree with your posting to Linda Bird that we must first exhaust
 the "psychological processes" explanations before turning to
 abductions and alien intervention. Strieber himself says he was
 never "abducted", although I am now convinced he is suffering from
 a variety of psychological problems. We can discuss this in depth
 after you receive the material.

 Take care,

 Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Crop Circles and spontaneous combustion
Date: 22 Oct 91 23:32:14 GMT

In a message to All <21 Oct 91 12:45> ncar!doc.imperial.ac.uk!a wrote:


 nc> Does any one have any information on human spontaneous combustion?
 nc> I have just heard the UK BUFORA message number 98 in which Jenny Randles
 nc> likens the the energy of such strange events to the energy which is
 nc> associated with the creation of crop circles. She even asked if anyone
 nc> has any information on spontaneous combustion to contact BUFORA.
 nc> I am very interested in this as Jenny Randles has always seemed to have
 nc> been in the plasma vortex camp, is this a change of heart.


I think the SHC controversy has been pretty well put to rest by a gent here in
the States named Joe Nickell. He showed, to the satisfaction of many, that
there was a strong correlation between SHC incidents, advanced age, ingestion
of spirits or other narcotics, and proximity to an open flame. He also showed
that the "mysterious" effects on the human body (complete consumption, etc.)
were not in fact so mysterious, and were right in line with the normal physics
of slow combustion of a cadaver.

Interesting that Jenny Randles would all of a sudden raise the SHC question in
connection with crop circles...as you said, I thought she was squarely in the
vortex camp, and its not like her to suddenly go off on this big of a tangent.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Possible FTL signals generav>c
Date: 23 Oct 91 15:29:29 GMT

In a message to All <22 Oct 91 17:55> ncar!UNHH.UNH.EDU!K_MACAR wrote:


 nc> successful transmission of a radio wave
 nc> (non-TEM mode) at high frequency (from
 nc> 8-10 Gigahertz) at speeds exceeding the
 nc> normal intrinsic value 'c'.  As absurd
 nc> as it sounds at the outset, the theory
 nc> it is based on is valid.   In electromagnetic wave propagation, there is a
 nc> quantity called Phase Velocity, which
 nc> can be greater than light, but no one
 nc> until now has believed that you could
 nc> do anything with it because no energy
 nc> packets (of photons, etc.) could go
 nc> faster than 'c'.  This mathematical oddity
 nc> in the theory has been ignored
 nc> experimentally after a few attempts failed to
 nc> disprove the theory.


I have no idea if this research is valid, however, it makes me wonder how many
great experimental finds go ignored.....Someone at ParaNet should dig into
this. If "Scientific American" (spoken with nose firmly in air) can't handle
it, we should at least try....


--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Position Paper
Date: 24 Oct 91 06:18:00 GMT

To all;

While researching the continuing story on Lee Graham for UFO Magazine, I
recently spoke to William Moore of MJ-12 fame. As many of you know, since
Moore's admission at the 1989 MUFON conference he has taken much "flak" from
the UFO arena because of his part in what is now known as the "Bennewitz"
affair.

Moore told me that he, Jaime Shandera and the former AFOSI NCO, Richard Doty
have cooperated on a document that he will soon send out to members of his
FOCUS organazation. It has been titled;

"The Scientist, the Government and UFOs; Personal Recollections of the Paul
Bennewitz Affair. A case study in disinformation."

Moore informed me that he will send out information on this to me in the next
few days, and when the document is ready he will forward a copy to me at the magazine.
When received I will ask permission to upload the text to ParaNet.

If anyone has any questions, I will be happy to forward to Moore.

Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Possible FTL signals
Date: 24 Oct 91 10:58:00 GMT

Hi, Korac!  Please bear with a long quote...

 >      I have read three articles in legitimate journals of
 > the microwave/RF
 > profession of efforts by a George Giakos and a Prof. T.
 > Koryu Isii of Marquette
 > University in Milwaukee describing successful transmission
 > of a radio wave
 > (non-TEM mode) at high frequency (from 8-10 Gigahertz) at
 > speeds exceeding the
 > normal intrinsic value 'c'.  As absurd as it sounds at the

[....]

 > velocity increased.  They report velocities of the pulses
 > up to 5.0 e+08 m/sec
 > which is faster than light's 3.0 e+08 m/sec.   My question
 > is, if light is not
 > going faster than its painstakingly defined value, what
 > kind of particle/wave
 > is making the antenna oscillate with the pulse?  Is it some
 > kind of super-
 > luminal pseudo-photon (the infamous tachyon), or what?   I
 > have heard nothing
 > about this research in the normal press (science news,
 > scientific american,
 > etc.).

This is *very* interesting...  Ever heard of Mirkl/Putoff "Scroll
Waves"?

These are hypothetical constructs from the "Zero-Point Energy"
theories.  What is interesting is that Dr. Putoff achieved
results similar to the ones you describe from an experiment that
used a chamber similar to the waveguide you described.

While Zero-Point Energy is really primarily concerned with
extracting energy from near vacuum conditions (and things like
the van der Waals forces & the Casimir effect), photon
augmentation is another aspect of the theory.  There's a rather
lengthy text file available at KeelyNet, Tom Albion's THC Online
BBS in Canada, and my BBS on low-energy ZPE phenomena & on
photon augmentation.  File name is ZPE5.ZIP.

You might find the whole ZPE series interesting, actually.

Best,
  Clark


PS -- Here's a sample:

[much stuff cut...]

       A vacuum between two sheets of metal is not the same as one that is
       unconstrained. Some of  the modes of the electromagnetic  field  are
       suppressed--the modes which  represent  waves  in the field that are
       too big to fit into the cavity.

       By changing the size of the cavity,  you  can  lose  certain  modes.
       Groups of scientists around the world have built cavities  that rule
       out certain modes  of  vacuum  energy,  and  thus  stop  atoms  from
       emitting photons at various wavelengths.

       Using a related technique, they have  designed  and  built  cavities
       that enhance the radiation by allowing the atom to  "see" more modes
       of the vacuum radiation than it would if there was no cavity.

       The results of   such   experiments   allow  scientists  to  explore
       otherwise inaccessible areas of quantum  electrodynamics, the theory
       of electromagnetic fields.

       An intriguing theoretical  point about the way that  atoms  interact
       with vacuum has  been  made  by  Dr Hal Puthoff of the Institute for
       Advanced Studies in Austin, Texas.

       For every atom there is an energy level below which the electrons
       cannot sink. Dr  Puthoff  suggests  that this is because, at the low
       energy levels, electrons cannot lose  energy  any  faster  than they
       pick it up from a vacuum.

       It is the  vacuum  energy  that  buoys them up, stopping  them  from
       losing all their energy and collapsing into the atomic nucleus.

       That means that  the  vacuum underpins the stability of every atom--
       and thus of almost all matter in the universe.

[stuff cut...]

           Jerry W. Decker.........Ron Barker...........Chuck Henderson
                             Vangard Sciences/KeelyNet

       --------------------------------------------------------------------
                     If we can be of service, you may contact
                 Jerry at [phone] or Ron at [phone]
       --------------------------------------------------------------------

                                      Page 4






   I got copies of the articles from the author, who
 > has an e-mail
 > address (maybe I can find it).   For reference, the
 > articles appear in:
 >
 >         Microwave and Optical Technology Letters, vol. 4,
 > No.2, Jan. 20, 1991
 > and          '           '       "         "      vol. 4,
 > No.3  Feb 1991
 >
 > as well as Microwaves and RF (magazine), August 1991, p.115
 >
 >
 >         I am not an expert in microwave physics, I deal
 > mainly in computer
 > programming for cosmic ray research, so I have no idea if
 > this has already
 > been shot down or is being ignored.   I can't find any
 > flaws in the math,
 > and don't know enough to make quantitative statements about
 > the experiments.
 > For what its worth, they claim the error is less than 0.1
 > %, small enough to
 > prove they are getting values of signal propagation > c.
 > Interesting at
 > any rate (no pun intended, but laugh if you want).  :)
 >
 >                                                 Korac
 > MacArthur
 >                                                 UNH Space
 > Science Center
 >
 > [e-mail]
 >
 > --- ConfMail V4.00
 >  * Origin: Paranet(sm) - The world's leading UFO
 > Investigative News Network (1:30163/150)


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 494

                           Monday, October 28th 1991

Today's Topics:

                             Spon. Human Combustion
                                  BENTWATERS,UK
                                Dr. Fredrick Bell
                                  Re: FOX Show
                               Re: Erol Torun/DMA
                                   Re: Hello!
                              Re: ParaNet 9600 bps
                                     Roswell
                                    UFO shows
                              crop circles and SHC
                                      nodes
                             Spon. Human Combustion
                              Re: Paranet 9600 Bps
                              Re: Paranet 9600 Bps
                                      Angel

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Spon. Human Combustion
Date: 24 Oct 91 11:14:00 GMT

Hi Sheldon.  RE:  Your post to Rob Trevelyan on SHC...

 >      In regards to your ball lightning question, a rather
 > interesting case was reported last year at the 1990 Ball
 > Lightning
 > Conference, held in Budapest. The incident took place on
 > May 25,
 > 1989, in a field by the roadside near Kerecseud, a village
 > 65 miles
 > from Budapest. The victim was a 27 year old engineer WITHIN
 > WHOSE
 > BODY, it is conjectured, ball lightning formed. The man had
 > stopped
 > his car and walked to the edge of a field about 30 feet
 > distant to
 > urinate. Suddenly, his wife, who had remained behind in the
 > car,
 > saw that her husband was surrounded by a blue light. He
 > opened his
 > arms wide and fell to the ground. His wife ran to him,
 > noticing
 > that one of his tennis shoes had been torn off. Amazingly,

The very first thing that comes to mind here is whether
overloaded high-tension or low-tension wires were nearby.  Since
this incident occurred at a roadside, nearby power lines may
well have been present.

If such lines are overloaded or badly insulated, fatal arcing
can occur FROM THE GROUND at a considerable distance from the
power lines.  This has happened often in our country, in rural
areas where public utilities have quietly overloaded their
lines.  The resulting discharges *can easily electrocute
livestock* over 1/4 mile from the "leaky" H/T lines. I bet that
Hungarian utility agencies are guilty of the same practice...

 >      At the autopsy, a hole was found in the man's heel where the
 > shoe had been. The lungs were torn and damaged, and the stomach and
 > belly were carbonized! This is indicative of internal combustion,
 > just as the blue light is suggestive of atmospheric electricity,
 > while the damaged heel and shoe are denotative of electrical
 > grounding. No other effects of local atmospheric electricity were
 > noticed. The sky was overcast and conditions possibly suitable for
 > a thunderstorm. The couple had earlier passed through a
 > thunderstorm when 35 miles away, but at the site of the tragedy it
 > was dry and rainless. Do you feel this incident may help to explain
 > the cases of so called "human spontaneous combustion"?

Personally, I suspect that this poor man was electrocuted thru
his own urine.  The "ball lightning" witnessed by the victim's
wife may have been ST. ELMO's FIRE -- an ungrounded corona
around the victim in the damp, pre-thunderstorm conditions. The
hole in his heel and tennis shoe indicates where the current
finally grounded itself.

One of my uncles saw this happen to a young man in Eastern
Canada (PEI) in the early 1960s.  The area was just being
electrified and the power lines must have been practically
smoking (in fact, there were near-catastrophic forest fires that
could have been cause by the things, now that I remember that
summer).  Anyway, the victim had been working with several other
men in a field -- when they finished, they washed up at a
washbasin on an outdoor table, about 100 yards from the overhead
power line(s) beside the road.  When the poor guy had washed up,
he emptied the basin on the ground and was electrocuted.  As in
the Hungarian case, a hole was burned through the heel of his
boot.  He lived for about 15 minutes, then died.

So Sheldon, the next time you drive past a pasture where the
cattle are all wearing those silly rubber boots -- don't stop to
relieve yourself.

Best,
  Clark


PS -- Weird as all this is, genuine SHC is much, much weirder.
The Mary Reeser case is so bizarre as to be beyond belief.  She
was INCINERATED in a chair, and so was a perfect circle of the
floor that the chair was on.  Coroner estimated temps of 3000 degrees
plus.  Almost NO OTHER DAMAGE to the room or the house, and
there was NO FIRE.

I have a couple of text files on this:  SHC1.ZIP and SHC2.ZIP,
from KeelyNet


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: BENTWATERS,UK
Date: 24 Oct 91 11:19:00 GMT


 > The Cash/Landrum incident update was very interesting,
 > since the two of them had physical reactions to something.

You bet.  They're not the only ones, either.  Vallee in
Confrontations goes into considerable detail about UFO "sunburn".
The Brazilian cases he described were so bizarre, however, that
nuclear radiation alone does not seem to account for some of
them.

One horrible case resembled high-speed leprosy -- the victim
literally disintegrated within two days.  It was painless but he
was conscious until very close to his death.

Yeccchhh...  <shiver>

Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 24 Oct 91 11:24:00 GMT


 > Thanks for that info. I am curious...do you know what is a
 > smallest mass required to support self-sustaining fusion.
 > Supposing there was a planet large enough to support self-
 > sustaining fusion, how would that fusion start?

Good question, and I don't know.  I do know that Jupiter is so
massive that its core should be hypothetically composed of solid
hydrogen -- a form of H2 that we cannot synthesize here on earth.
Perhaps there is a "critical mass" of solid H2 needed to get a
star going??

I don't know, though.  Maybe someone else here?  (Jim Graham???)

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: FOX Show
Date: 23 Oct 91 05:19:00 GMT

In a message to All <10-18-91 21:18> Jim Speiser wrote:

JS>  Well, that sure stunk.
 I agree. It's sad, isn't it?


JS>  Disinformation Suspect #1. Didn't anyone tell them there IS no
JS>  Department of Naval Intelligence? Vicki and Don, did these guys come

Well, okay. But there is an NIS: Naval Investigative Service. Doesn't prove
a thing, just wondered if some names had gotten mixed up. I know there's an
NIS cause they got me once--a long, long time ago (in a galaxy far away)
--Michael

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: Erol Torun/DMA
Date: 23 Oct 91 05:25:00 GMT

In a message to Clark Matthews <10-14-91 13:27> Steve Rose wrote:
SR>
SR>  Or just look at the particulars of those ramrodded 'Anti-Crime' bills
SR>  which will make your 'liberties' looked like Germany of the '30s. :(
SR>
SR>
SR>  ...Why blame Spooks?  They just follow orders.
SR>
Isn't that what Adolph Eichmann said?

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: Hello!
Date: 23 Oct 91 05:28:00 GMT

In a message to All <10-21-91 23:55> Jim Dritsas wrote:

JD>  Hello there everyone!  I am a new user here, and I would just like to
JD>  introduce myself!  I am calling a little north of the border, from
JD>  Toronto, Ontario (CANADA).  Anyways, I'm glad to be a member, it
JD>  looks like a spectacular system.

Happy to have you. I wonder if you have any thoughts about our subject from
a Canadian perspective? Is there any twist on UFOs or particularly
compelling sighting reports you might know about that we might not get quite
as easily 'down here?'

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: ParaNet 9600 bps
Date: 23 Oct 91 05:29:00 GMT

In a message to All <10-22-91 20:57> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:

SW>
SW>  Are there any ParaNet nodes running
SW>  @ 9600 bps v.32, v.42, v.42bis?

You bet. HST/Dual here. I'm sure there are several others

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: Roswell
Date: 25 Oct 91 07:41:56 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

To: Steve Musselwhite

+I am new to Paranet, but I have found nothing in this section about
+Roswell, the most dramatic example of what is happening and the most
+dramatic example of the government (almost) screwing up.  What am I
+missing?

We can't discuss all of the subjects all of the time.  Have you seen Randle
& Schmidt's book yet?  I had to order it through the mail because I never
saw any copies at the local Waldenbooks.  Silly me, I thought that book
might get the public's attention and shake out some of the apathy, but it's
not going to get their attention if they don't know it exists!

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:         | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms        | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: UFO shows
Date: 25 Oct 91 07:42:10 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

Sheldon Wernikoff writes:

+NEW TELEVISED UFO ABDUCTION ACCOUNT
+___________________________________
+
+BROADCAST DATE: Friday, 27-Oct-91
+BROADCAST TIME: 9:00 P.M. (EST)
+NETWORK: USA (cable)
+PROGRAM TITLE: 'Beyond Reality'
+STARRING: Shari Belafonte
+
+DETAILS: 'Ten years ago, Jenny Lambert's
+mother was abducted by a UFO.
+Now, they're back.'
+
+COMMENTS: Don't expect too much, folks

You mean this 'Beyond Reality' thing (what a stupid title!) is a series?  I
saw an episode on psychic healing or some such thing (I taped it, but
haven't watched it yet) advertised for last Friday, but I didn't know it
was going to be a series.  Does anyone know what else they have in store
for us?

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:         | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms        | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: crop circles and SHC
Date: 25 Oct 91 07:42:25 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

Robert Trevelyan writes:

+Does any one have any information on human spontaneous combustion?
+I have just heard the UK BUFORA message number 98 in which Jenny Randles
+likens the the energy of such strange events to the energy which is
+associated with the creation of crop circles. She even asked if anyone
+has any information on spontaneous combustion to contact BUFORA.
+I am very interested in this as Jenny Randles has always seemed to have
+been in the plasma vortex camp, is this a change of heart.

Jerry Decker at KeelyNet says that there are some theories that nuclear
reactions take place within cells.  His own thinking on SHC is that it
might be caused by these nuclear reactions going out of control due to an
imbalance in body chemistry.

There's also the Allende story about SHC caused by interference with the
body's electromagnetic (or ???) field by an external field.  (If Allende
didn't make the whole thing up like he once said he did.)

I'm puzzled as to what this has to do with crop circles, though.  Certainly
there seems to be heat involved, but there's already the plasma vortex
theory and even the orbital maser testing theory that could explain that.
There is the odd matter of the radioisotopes described in Sheldon's recent
message, however.  I'll have to ask Jerry if he can dig up any details on
the 'biological transmutation' (as it's called) theories.  (Then there's
the question of what, other than hoaxes, produces such fancy patterns.
Have any of the fancy patterns been proven to be anything other than
hoaxes?  If they have, it looks like we're stuck with either the alien
intelligence theory or the maser testing.)

A final note on plants and mysterious energy:  I'm pretty sure I read
somewhere that Wilhelm Reich's orgone accumulator design was inspired by
the cell walls of plants.  The orgone accumulator boxes would always be
warmer on the inside than on the outside for no apparent reason.  If plant
cells, like the orgone boxes, are transducers for some sort of energy
field, what would happen if they were exposed to a much higher than normal
level of that energy?  (I'm not going to pretend to have any ideas on what
would cause such a field!)

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:         | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms        | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: nodes
Date: 25 Oct 91 07:42:47 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

Jim Dritsas writes:

+Hello there everyone! I am a new user here, and I would just like to
+introduce myself!  I am calling a little north of the border, from Toronto,
+Ontario (CANADA).  Anyways, I'm glad to be a member, it looks like a
+spectacular system.
+
+  Well, now the only thing that would be nice was if I lived in Colarado, so
+I didn't have to pay any long distance charges!

There ought to be a node closer to you than Colorado.  (Although there
don't seem to be any Canadian nodes.)  Here's the last list I found, I hope
it's fairly recent.

    LIST OF PARANET INTERNATIONAL NODES
      ==============================================

  ParaNet Information Service
  Headquarters
  Michael Corbin, Administrator
  P.O. Box 928
  Wheatridge, Colorado 80034-0928
  FidoNet Address: 1:310/8
  ParaNet Private Address:  9:9/0
  =========================================================
  Don Ecker, Network Security 30163/0
  Bob Fletcher, Bureau Chief/Australian Bureau 30163/401
  Doug Rogers, Echo Moderator 30163/3
  Paul Faeder, Network Development/Coordinator 30163/203
  John Burke, ParaNet Legal Counsel 9:9/800
  =========================================================
  Please direct all inquiries to Alpha at 1:310/8 or 9:9/0

  AUSTRALIA
  ---------
  Board      Location    Sysop       Data Phone    Baud
  FIDO Add   ParaNet Address   CIS ID      Remarks
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-ALPHA Kingsbury Vic , Australia 011-61-3-467-7984  9600
  30163/401   Bob Fletcher  Bureau Chief
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-BETA  Mentone, Victoria, Australia 011-61-3-583-4778  2400
  30163/402    John Marsden
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-GAMMA Launceston, Tasmania, Australia 011-61-3-44-9762   2400
  30163/403    Roy Austen
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-DELTA Chippendale, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
  30163/404    Lance Lyon 011-61-2-319-1793  2400
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-EPSILON   Milton, Victoria        **Temporarily Out of Service**
  30163/405    Darren Moore
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-ZETA  Melba, A.C.T., Australia 011-61-62-587-160  2400
  30163/406    Scott Furry
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-THETA  Dalkeith, Western Australia 011-61-9-386-2405   2400
  30163/408    Andrew Milner
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-ETA  Lane Cove, New South Wales 011-002-428-2446    2400
  30163/407    Grame Thompson
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-IOTA  Kendall, New South Wales 011-065-59-4537     9600
  30163/409    John Caine
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-KAPPA  Blacktown, New South Wales 011-61-2-622-9591   2400
  30163/410    Robert Jones
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-LAMBDA  Redfern, New South Wales 011-61-2-319-0925   2400
  30163/411    Jodi Jackson
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-MU  Footscray, Victoria   **Private System**
  30163/412    Ken Hayes
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-NU  Ferntree, Gully, Australia 011-61-3-758-9573   2400
  30163/413   Lincoln Broomhall
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
  ------------------------

  Board      Location    Sysop       Data Phone    Baud
  FIDO Add   ParaNet Address   CIS ID      Remarks
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA      Cheyenne, WY Michael Corbin      307-632-0352  9600
  30163/0   Headquarters Node
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-BETA Cedar Rapids, IA Peter Elliff      319-377-0134  9600
  30163/14   Open Cluster
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-CENTAURI San Francisco, CA Rick Moen      415-648-8944  2400
  30163/25    The Skeptic's Board
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-GAMMA  Bloomington , IN  Jim Graham      812-334-0418  2400
     Portal Dolmen BBS       **Local System**
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-DELTA Los Angeles, CA  Don Ecker       **Private System**
  30163/22
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-EPSILON  Alexandria, VA  Steve Rose      703-823-6591  2400
  30163/26       ABySS BBS
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-ZETA  Sacramento, CA  Boyd Naron      916-427-0324  9600
        The City Lights
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-MU  Sacramento, CA  Dan Brown      916-446-7286  2400
        Gates of Delirium
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-THETA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-ETA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-IOTA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-KAPPA  Pittsburgh, PA  Chuck Ammon      412-264-2692  9600

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-LAMBDA

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-MU  El Cajon  , CA  Don Orchard      619-440-6038  2400

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-NU  Gilbert   , AZ  Frank Ward      602-892-1853  2400
     The Encounter BBS
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  BETA      ,

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  GAMMA      Lexington    , KY Doug Rogers      606-271-0558  2400
  30163/3
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  DELTA      Saskatoon    , Saskatchewan      306-934-2919  9600
  30163/4       Canada  John Bowden
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  DELTA-ALPHA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  EPSILON    Warren    , MI Jacques Leclerc      313-751-4057  2400
  30163/5
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ZETA      Bethany Park  , IN   Terry Fields      317-831-1827  2400
  30163/6
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  KAPPA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  LAMBDA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  MU

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  NU-ALPHA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  NU-BETA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  NU-GAMMA   Cape Coral    , FL  Bill Stewart       **Out of Service*
        Nite Connections
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  NU-DELTA   Orlando    , FL  John Hicks       407-649-4136 9600
  30163/29       Gourmet Delight
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  NU-EPSILON Altamonte Spgs, FL  Gale Thompson       407-628-2018 2400
  30163/35       The Business
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  XI-ALPHA   Milwaukee    , WI  Pete Porro        414-352-6176 9600
  30163/206       Radio Free Milwaukee
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  XI-BETA    San Leandro   , CA  Cheryl Mathison       415-481-2806 2400
     Yellow Submarine
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  XI-GAMMA   Luther   , OK  Rod Wilson        405-277-3603 2400
  30163/204    Paraclypse III
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMICRON     Bushkill    , PA  Paul Faeder        717-588-7549 9600
  30163/203
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  PI       Jersey City  , NJ  Clark Matthews        201-451-3063 2400

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  RHO       Chicago    , IL   Jerry Ablan        312-876-3652 1200
  30163/13
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  RHO-BETA    Ingleside    , IL   Jerry Callahan       312-740-2072 9600
  30163/23
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU-BETA    Columbia    , MO   Brian Clark        314-442-0779 2400
      Thrift University BBS
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU-GAMMA   Chattanooga  , TN   John I. Finney       615-265-2629 9600
  30163/34     The Old Folks Home
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU-CETI    Chicago    , IL   John Burke        **PRIVATE SYSTEM**
      ParaNet Legal Counsel
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU-DELTA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU-EPSILON

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  UPSILON

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  PHI

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  CHI      Nashua    , NH   Ralph Schwarz        603-888-3840 9600
  30163/2     The Outpost BBS
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  CHI-BETA   Burlington    , VT   James Pallack        802-860-1875 9600
  30163/37     We Serve Your Drives
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ZETA-RETICULI  Phoenix   , AZ   Jim Speiser        602-951-3431 9600
  30163/20     USOP BBS
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  EUROPE
  ------

  Board      Location    Sysop       Data Phone    Baud
  FIDO Add   ParaNet Address   CIS ID      Remarks
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  THETA

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  GERMANY
  -------

  Board      Location     Sysop       Data Phone    Baud
  FIDO Add   ParaNet Address    CIS ID       Remarks
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  SIGMA-ALPHA  Berlin    , Germany Andre' Eichner  011-49-30-791-9269
  30163/303          9600
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  SIGMA-BETA   Darmstadt   , Germany Hendrik Bohm    011-49-6257-7966
  30163/304           2400
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  SIGMA-GAMMA  Berlin    , Germany Detlef Deutzer  011-30-624-98-32
  30163/305           2400
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  SIGMA-DELTA  Hannover    , Germany Ernst Elbe      011-49-511-392274
            9600
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:         | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms        | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, 'Face Up')




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Spon. Human Combustion
Date: 26 Oct 91 04:21:00 GMT


 Hello Clark,

 Thanks for your reply and comments on the Hungarian ball lightning
 case. I certainly agree with your hypothesis that "leaky"
 power lines could have been the culprit in this situation, IF they
 were present. I'll check that aspect out with the author in England
 and get back to you.

 The reason I brought this case up is that one of the main theories
 advanced in the past, although without adequate proof, has been that
 ball lightning somehow intruded into the room of the SHC victim.

 For further information, this case was investigated by ball-lightning
 expert Dr. George Egely of the Central Institute of Physics, Budapest
 and was reported at the Second Ball Lightning Conference held in
 Budapest in June 1990.

 Amazingly, there are still many physicists who insist that ball
 lightning can not exist, despite many eye-witness reports, and a
 few photographs.

 Like you said Clark, for safety's sake, when outdoors in inclement weather,
 be sure to urinate _only_ into a well insulated, properly grounded receptacle.

 Take care,

 Sheldon
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Re: Paranet 9600 Bps
Date: 26 Oct 91 04:22:00 GMT


 Hi Mike,

 Thanks for letting me know that you're running 9600 v.32 up there.

 Actually, you are the only node I know of so far that's dual.
 Mind if I check in to capture the message base? These LD charges
 are killing me at 2400.

 BTW, can you tell me anything about Aileen Edwards-Bringle and her
 contactee group? Any thoughts/comments would be greatly a
 appreciated.

 Thanks much,

 Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Schuyler)
Subject: Re: Paranet 9600 Bps
Date: 26 Oct 91 05:46:00 GMT

In a message to Michael Schuyler <10-25-91 21:22> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:
SW>   Actually, you are the only node I know of so far that's dual.
SW>   Mind if I check in to capture the message base? These LD charges
SW>   are killing me at 2400.

Sure, you're welcome to call. Justget on and off the first time so I can
upgrade you quickly. I'll do it right away, but that way you can establish
your pw. I don't have an offline mail reader yet, so it's klutzy!

SW>
SW>   BTW, can you tell me anything about Aileen Edwards-Bringle and her
SW>   contactee group? Any thoughts/comments would be greatly a
SW>   appreciated.

I talked to Aileen a few weeks ago and subscribed to her Journal. Let's see
if I can describe the group succinctly....Definitely contactee and New Age,
with a belief in channeled material. The Journal is called "The Missing
Link" and is largely full of reprints, mostly sort-of UFO-related, but
rarely with attribution. I'm sure some of this thing violates copyright,
Physically it looks pretty bad with many typefaces and poor reproduction.
Here's a list of articles in a recent issue:

"Essassani; the Living Light Center," by Aileen, about Bashar, the channeled
entity, who is telling the group to establish Cities of Light across the
country.
"Express the Essence" a poem  about light.
"UFO's, Et's and you," by Tom Dongo, about Bigfoot
"Possible Relation Review," by Darush Bagheri, about parallels in the Koran
which might be UFO sightings,
"Two Men in a Little Green Suit" about Bob Dean, a UFO enthusiast who was
denied a promotion in an EMT facility and is now suing (newspaper reprint)
"Roswell Alien Photo or Just another Hoax?" Focus reprint.
"I met and Flew with UFO Aliens," about Billy Meier, a newspaper reprint
"The Abduction of Sammy Desmond," by D. Scot Rogo, reprint from CUFOS from
1987.
"UFO and AAD," by Oleg Moroz, account of USSR Air Defense Forces encounters
with UFOs. Looks like a repirint.
"Without a Name," by Bob Anthony, on how not having names is a good idea.

Look, I know I haven't done this justice cause it's a quick note, but I hope
you can get a feel for the publication, and therefore the organization from
this short sketch. Please permit me to congratulate myself for the
incredible restraint I have exhibited with this post. ;-)
--Michael

--
Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Angel
Date: 25 Oct 91 03:46:00 GMT

An associate asked me the other day to see if anyone can chase a
reference in the bible for him. He was reading Strieber's
"Transformation" page 109 about a memory of someone dropping "three
drops of a clear liquid..onto my tounge." My associate has a
recollection of there being a biblical reference to an "angel of
revelation" "shall touch the elected three times on the forehead." Can
anyone help with the source of this biblical reference (if it is in
fact from the bible.)?

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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DOMAIN  [e-mail]

 For administrative requests (subscriptions, back issues) send to:

UUCP            {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara-request
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 495

                           Tuesday, October 29th 1991

Today's Topics:

                             Crop circle researcher
                                     Welcome
                                       SHC
                                    FOX Show
                                   Re: Hello!
                                     Welcome
                                   Bunker Ramo
                             Spon. Human Combustion
                                   TV Show...
                          Re: Fragments of information
                              Submit your articles!
                                ParaNet CONTINUUM
                                Paranet Continuum
                          Re: Weird Night On Halloween
                          Re: Weird Night On Halloween
                                    Implants
                             Video cameras and UFOs
                             Spon. Human Combustion
                               Planes in Formation
                               Heard on the Street
                              Re: Paranet 9600 Bps
                                       SHC
                       Crop Circle Skepticism - Cross-post

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David Galea)
Subject: Crop circle researcher
Date: 18 Oct 91 05:48:00 GMT


 > The claim that these two old geezers were responsible for thousands of
 > circles all over the U.K. does indeed sound implausible, doesn't it?
 > I certainly don't buy it.  [Shocked silence descends on the crowd.]

I agree with you Rick,

I do not believe that these two Men craeted the circles in the manner that they
displayed on Television here in Australia. First of all there is the number of
them, their quality of manufacture and there various locations.
I feel that a great proportion of these "Crop Circles" are indeed a hoax, but
this cannot explain all of them.

regards,

David Galea

--
David Galea - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Welcome
Date: 25 Oct 91 04:54:00 GMT

To: Jim Dritsas, Welcome to the system, from Adelaide, South
Australia. If you have the time, how about a little summary of what's
happening in your neck of the woods? For example, have you had any
crop circles, abductions etc.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: SHC
Date: 25 Oct 91 04:59:00 GMT

Re spontaneous human combustion, I would recommend the following:-
Harrison, Michael. (1990). "Fire from Heaven." Skoob books. London.
379pp.  Co-incidently, I only came across a reference to this book,
yesterday.

--
Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: FOX Show
Date: 25 Oct 91 23:18:00 GMT


 MS> Well, okay. But there is an NIS: Naval Investigative Service.
 MS> Doesn't prove a thing, just wondered if some names had gotten
 MS> mixed up. I know there's an NIS cause they got me once--a long,
 MS> long time ago (in a galaxy far away)

Hi Michael.  If you can, would you tell us how you ran afoul of NIS and what
their methods were, as far as you know?

Best,
  Clark



--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Dritsas)
Subject: Re: Hello!
Date: 27 Oct 91 05:53:00 GMT


Hi there!    Well, to answer your question, there isn't anything spectacular
in the UFO world happening here in Toronto. Basically, information of this
sort gets around pretty quick, and you would probably find out just as fast
through books, or the text files.   Anyways, if anything strange happens,
I'll let ya know!  However, all the real GOOD stuff is centered around the
American government alleged cover-ups, and what not!

Talk to ya later!

--
Jim Dritsas - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Dritsas)
Subject: Welcome
Date: 27 Oct 91 05:59:00 GMT


Hi!   Thanks for the greeting!   You are calling all the way from
Australlia?  I thought my connect charges were alot....   Anyways, well,
last I heard about the crop circle phenomenon was that they started to find
alot of them out in western Canada. In places like Manitoba and Alberta, as
usual, in farmer's fields.  I heard that in a story in 'A Current Affair'.
Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything regarding it since, and this was
about 6-8 months ago.  I usually find out alot of what is going on by
reading UFO related books. I have never seen ANY UFO related material at all
being relayed through newspapers here, or local news channels. Except for a
couple of weeks ago, the local station was showing those 2 chaps in England
who have claimed responsibility for the crop circles.

See ya later... CHEERS!

--
Jim Dritsas - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Bunker Ramo
Date: 27 Oct 91 00:11:00 GMT

In a message to Clark Matthews <25 Oct 91 21:21> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:

 SW> Like you said Clark, for safety's sake, when outdoors in inclement
 SW> weather, be sure to urinate _only_ into
 SW> a well insulated, properly grounded
 SW> receptacle.

Ha-HAAAAAA-hahahahahaha!

Words to live by, Sheldon!  Words to live by ...

BTW, I noticed your postings in another echo re: a high-speed feed.
 Unfortunately I have a 9600 CompuCom v.29 at present, which will only give
you 2400 MNP if you have a USR D/S.  That's about 260 cps or 110% of 2400.
I will be switching to a 14.4 v.32bis/v.42bis CompuCom modem within a month or
two.

I do have the XRS Offline Reader running, though.  With the XRS message packets
squashed by PKZip or LHA, you could actually get thruputs of about 7200 for
message captures and reply uploads.  This would be squashed message captures
over a 2400 MNP connection, OK?

If you want to try this you'll need to download the XRS Ver. 4.5 Offline
Reader, which is about 330k.  You may be able to find this locally, or you can
get it from the East Bay Xchange BBS.  I'll have to find their number but it's
in North Carolina, multiline, with HST/v.32bis.  The East Bay Xchange is very
busy, though.

Anyway, let me know or just call & page me.  I'll upgrade you online if you
want to try it out.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Spon. Human Combustion
Date: 27 Oct 91 01:48:00 GMT

In a message to Clark Matthews <25 Oct 91 21:21> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:

 SW> Thanks for your reply and comments on the Hungarian ball lightning
 SW> case. I certainly agree with your hypothesis that "leaky"
 SW> power lines could have been the culprit in this situation, IF they
 SW> were present. I'll check that aspect out with the author in England
 SW> and get back to you.

Hi Sheldon.  I'd be very interested to hear about the hi-tension angle to this
case.  And I'm not totally dismissive of a correlation between the occurrance
of ball lightning and high-tension "leaks" into the earth, as you'll see.  For
that matter, the *type* of soil could have a lot to do with both ball
lightning and electrical leakage.  More on the soil conductivity angle later.

You see, I can give you another instance of a peculiar phenomenon that could
relate to this (remembered it after posting my cow-bootie reply):  At the same
time Prince County was being electrified (from the ground up, as it turned
out), an uncle of mine recounted a very bizarre occurance when lightning struck
his house.  The lightning strike should not have been a big deal, since almost
all buildings and outbuildings there have multiple lightning rods.  What
happened was this:

In the middle of a raging thunderstorm, lightning struck a lightning rod (which
grounded into the yard about 50 yards from my uncle's house).  Then, A GLOWING
WHITE BALL rose up from the parlor hearth (a nice old 1880s affair with an iron
grate).  The basketball-sized glowing ball then floated through the parlor,
where my aunt was entertaining a gathering of Presbyterians from the local
United Church of Canada.  Then it went through a door and into the kitchen,
where my uncle was sitting with several neighbors.  The ball moved across the
room, avoiding the legs of the seated people, and disappeared into a brand new
wall socket, which was not damaged!

This novel departure from Bingo & gossip happened on Prince Edward Island in
Canada -- a pretty little place in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.  The soil in that
part of the world (PEI, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia peninsula, Maine plateau)
has an extremely high iron content and usually makes an excellent ground.  For
this reason the CBC international service located all their shortwave
broadcasting facilities in Eastern N.B.

 SW> The reason I brought this case up is that one of the main theories
 SW> advanced in the past, although without adequate proof, has been that
 SW> ball lightning somehow intruded into the room of the SHC victim.

But I have to wonder how any kind of lightning could incinerate a human being
so completely.  The problem I have with this is that even very high voltages
and moderate currents can not do so much damage so fast.  Large portions of the
bodies of SHC victims are simply vaporized; there's a characteristic ring of
*grease* around the walls of the room -- probably condensed human fat or
sebaceous oils.  SHC burning is *so bad*, it's consistant with prolonged
exposure to high-tension voltage and current -- you see this type of burning
in people who somehow get stuck in high=tension lines.  You don't see it in
people who get a one-shot dose, even a from a direct cloud-to-ground lightning
strike.  The bodies (the torsos, anyway) actually seem to reach flash point and
*burn* until they are consumed, except for stray parts (feet, arms, legs,
heads).

Moreover, why should this phenomenon be confined to *indoor* locations?  I've
never heard of alfresco SHCs.  They always seem to be indoors, and often above
ground (recently in a railroad boxcar, for instance -- a *very well grounded*
environment).

Then there's the problem of the profile of SHC victims.  Why should most of
them be elderly?  Mostly female?  Virtually all of them heavy drinkers or
alcoholics?

If we were dealing with ball lightning, transient EM or dimensional phenomena,
or something else external -- shouldn't there be a much greater element of
*randomness* in these awful events?

This may sound ridiculous, but I wonder if there might be some metabolic
abberation that would cause the alcohol in a person's body to oxidize
instantly, with a huge release of heat?  Is it possible that certain people
with alcohol problems are predisposed to burn up?  Or could this phenomenon be
*triggered somehow*?  (I know this idea is straight out of Scannerz, with
apologies to David Cronenberg)

 SW> For further information, this case was investigated by ball-lightning
 SW> expert Dr. George Egely of the Central Institute of Physics, Budapest
 SW> and was reported at the Second Ball Lightning Conference held in
 SW> Budapest in June 1990.

OK, I'll look forward to hearing about the power-line angle.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Dritsas)
Subject: TV Show...
Date: 28 Oct 91 06:14:00 GMT

Did anyone see a show last week on FOX about UFO's ?  It was
excellent, it included the crop circles, a bit about Roswell, and
the government cover-ups. It also had a bit with Robert Lazar, the
scientist who claims to have worked at the top secret research
facility in Nevada where they had 9 disks.  It was a very good show,
I was surprised they showed alot of it on TV, it isn't too comon
these days to see a documentary-news type show on TV (at least a
GOOD one).  Anyways, I am pretty sure alot of you will have seen it.

So what do you all think?   How about your opinions about Robert
Lazar?  I have read a few text files with his interview on KLAS-TV
in Las Vegas with George Knapp, and I must admit, I really beleive
this guy is telling the truth.  He looks like a sincere, and honest
(not to mention intelligent) person.  I really fail to see how a
person like this can be making up a pile of lies on the subject.

Jim D.
--
Jim Dritsas - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Re: Fragments of information
Date: 26 Oct 91 02:11:26 GMT

David,

That's quite a post.

While I read it with interest, I feel compelled to say that without knowing
more about the sources and HOW you came upon this information, I have a very
hard time making any conclusions.  At this point, I'm very skeptical of ALL of
it.  If you are trying to help us out, we are going to need to know more so it
can be further investigated.

Doug Rogers
Echo Moderator

--
Doug Rogers - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Mike Keithly)
Subject: Paranet Continuum
Date: 28 Oct 91 15:40:00 GMT


 >              ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***

 >                             Continues ...



 > CONTINUUM is back!

 > ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, online communications,
 > paranormal
 > studies and research is resuming publication.

 > An exciting forum for an array of interests -- and a handy
 > resource
 > for finding:


 >                   -- Current UFO events and symposia

 >                      -- Computer bulletin boards

 >                            -- Study groups

 >                           -- Contact groups

 >               -- Researchers and research organizations

 >                          -- Writers and more.


 > Complimentary copies of CONTINUUM's premiere issue will be
 > available
 > to ParaNet participants and other interested parties for the
 > price of
 > postage.

 > Thereafter, CONTINUUM will be available by subscription only,
 > mailed
 > First Class within the U.S.  Please inquire via NetMail for
 > more
 > information and subscription rates, including overseas rates.

 > Send mail to:

 > * ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 -- address echomail to Michael
 > Corbin at
 >      9:9/0 (ParaNet) or
 >      1:104/422 (Fido) or
 >      [e-mail] (Internet)

 Clark ParaNet Alpha is now 104/605, or ParaNet (9:1012/18) Mike C is mail only
 now, You can address mail to him through me as well.  Also Clark let me know
 when is a good time to call you voice..

 > * ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 -- address echomail to Clark
 > Matthews at
 >      9:1012/4 (ParaNet) or
 >      1:107/816 (FidoNet) or
 >      P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934

 > * James Roger Black on InterNet at
 >      shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack (Internet)

--
Mike Keithly - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Re: Weird Night On Halloween
Date: 28 Oct 91 20:00:00 GMT

Hi Pete,
        Great to hear from you!  I'm glad you'll be able to pick up
that station.  Good stuff on it.
        Yes, that Ogden story is frustrating...It comes originally
from 1 man who saw the site and the objects and came back with 3
pictures and he let his friend see the pix and told him about the
story and that friend then shared the pix and the tale with a MUFON
director in TX and that MUFON person is the source of the story's
spreading, I've been told.  The photos Guy Kirkwood has are supposed
to be photocopies of the originals (the MUFON person made laser
photocopies of the originals.)  So far as I know, nobody except
the MUFON person's friend has actually talked to the man who was on
the scene and saw the things and got the photos (he didn't take them
-- didn't have his camera along) and the nearest I could get to this
Mystery Man was to talk to the MUFON person's friend on the phone.
Now that friend, who was to send me copies of the pix, has a
"disconnected" recording on his home phone number and has not
replied to messages left for him at his work.  The MUFON person is
now not in MUFON I've been told, but don't know details on that so
won't get into it for I could be wrong on something.  And that MUFON
person tells me EVERYONE else who's been talking about this story
can be traced back to her, so, yes, it's all from the same source.
That means, unfortunately, if you can't get to the Main Man through
them, you're out of luck.  Apparently I'm out of luck, then.
        It does make the whole thing very suspicious, though I've
been assured and reassured that these people are all extremely
careful and reliable and not given to confabulation.
        It would really help to be able to cross check even one
single thing.  So far, nil.
        Now Clark Matthews has just left a message to Linda Bird and
relayed it to me in which he says that he got a GIF of the pix
from Jim's BBS (presumably Speiser) and that's at least something.
        None of the people who promised to send me a copy has done
so, so all I've seen is the drawings Linda Bird made and was kind
enough to reproduce and mail to me.  She's now comparing them to the
photos of tunnel borers which a Colorado School of Mines tunnel
expert sent (faxed) to me.  I'm looking forward to her reply --
maybe it's the same kind of device.
        I was going to say working on this has been as muddled and
frustrating as what's been happening to you, but,no, you've had some
real stuff to deal with...I sure hope you're heading out of the deep
water into clear sailing...it's been a monster time for you and I
truly sympathize.  (Tain't worth much, I know, but it's sincere.)
        --Bout to run out of messge space here...take care of
yourself -- and if you're going crazy, at least you'll have plenty
of company (sometimes the crazy folks are a lot more fun that the
"sane" ones.)
                                        ==Peggy==
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Re: Weird Night On Halloween
Date: 28 Oct 91 20:02:00 GMT

PS:
        That UFO program on Friday, 10/18 --I could kick
myself--fell asleep 1/2 way through just when they got to the good
stuff!!!  Had been up 22 hours and made the mistake of getting warm
and comfortable.  Next thing I knew it was 5 minutes to the end of
the show.  At least I caught that tail end.  Oh well, maybe they'll
rebroadcast it sometime.  (RATS!!!)

--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Implants
Date: 28 Oct 91 20:09:00 GMT

>Peggy, in a message on 12th Oct you mentioned a radio show
>which included a man who talked about a personal abduction and
>implant.
>Do you by chance have any further details on him?
>--- FD 1.99c
> * Origin: UFO Research Australia, Research Officer,
>Adelaide-Aust (9:1040/12)

Hello Keith,
        I have not yet had time to listen to my audiotape of the
entire program so I don't know all the details yet, but I can tell
you this much:
        name:  Richard Price
        He says he was implanted by aliens and that the implant or
probe has been removed and is in the hands of scientists at MIT and
they're baffled about what it is.  "They don't what type of device
it is...they only thing they've come up with is a chemical
analysis.  I just got the report...We're not sure if it's a device
of some kind -- it's a chemical of some kind.  The scientist does
not know what it is.  He didn't exactly come out and say that it is
a material that isn't made here on this earth."
        He had it in his body for 35 years and knew it was there.
When asked why he waited so long to find out about it, he said
"that's when it decided to come out"  and it came out about 2 years
ago.  He was implanted at age 8.
        ---That's from the opening of the interview.
        I will get more to you when I can.  Does this help?  Perhaps
you know this person or his story?  He says he's told the story a
number of times.
                                                ==Peggy==
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu!al463
Subject: Video cameras and UFOs
Date: 29 Oct 91 04:15:04 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Christopher A. Joseph)


The Nov. 91 issue of VIDEOMAKER magazine has an interesting article on
how to film UFOs with your video camera. It was written by a man named
Allan Lundell, who treats the subject with the seriousness it
deserves. Lundell even goes as far a warning would-be UFO chasers that
they may be abducted; hardly something you'd expect to see in a
mainstream publication. Well worth the $2.50 cover price.

For those of you who can't find the magazine:

                     Videomaker
                     P.O. box 558
                     Mt. Morris, IL.
                     61054

         Customer service: [phone]

Is it just me, or does anyone else notice the increase in PRO-UFO
material in the past year?


--
Christopher A. Joseph (Chris)
 [e-mail]

                Waiting impatiently for nanotechnology...




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Spon. Human Combustion
Date: 24 Oct 91 18:26:00 GMT


 > PS -- Weird as all this is, genuine SHC is much, much weirder. The Mary
 > Reeser case is so bizarre as to be beyond belief.  She was INCINERATED
 > in a chair, and so was a perfect circle of the floor that the chair was
 > on.  Coroner estimated temps of 3000 degrees plus.  Almost NO OTHER
 > DAMAGE to the room or the house, and there was NO FIRE.

 > I have a couple of text files on this:  SHC1.ZIP and SHC2.ZIP, from
 > KeelyNet


Hi, Clarke...you really ought to read Nickell's treatment of the case. I'm not
saying its conclusive, mind you, but there are points that need to be
considered.


Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Planes in Formation
Date: 26 Oct 91 21:40:00 GMT

Last night we were having a Halloween party in our backyard, when my wife
sighted a series of bright red lights to the south of us, travelling east over
downtown Scottsdale. Both of us immediately recognized them as planes in
formation, with bright red, almost incandescent-looking lights. A couple who
arrived shortly thereafter told us they had seen the same thing on the way
over, only with bright white lights.

Today I learned that the same thing had been reported over Phoenix a couple of
days earlier. It turned out to be a group of pilots practicing formation flying
for an airshow at Falcon Field this weekend. As the air show is taking place
right now, I will have to wait till next week to follow up on the story. I'm
going to try to find out how many UFO reports were generated, who the pilots
were, why they were flying at night with such unconventional lighting, etc.
Will get back to ya.

An interesting sidelight: My wife saw seen a high-strangeness UFO of the
nocturnal lights variety a few years ago. When we saw these planes last night,
I immediately asked her if that was close to what she saw. "Oh, gosh, no. Not
even close," she said. I guess you can fool some of the people some of the
time, but ya can't fool Mary Speiser....:->

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Heard on the Street
Date: 26 Oct 91 21:49:00 GMT

Its semi-official: Phil Klass is writing a new book on the Roswell Incident.
Got this from Mark Rodeghier of CUFOS. Hey, Phil, be sure and include your
interviews with Sheridan Cavitt, you know, the guy who originally claimed he
wasn't even there, and then said that nothing happened at Roswell. Its SOOO
convincing, that the whole case is sure to just dry up and blow away as soon
as you publish.... <evil grin>


Also from CUFOS: The reason for the dearth of timely information on Belgium has
just become clear. SOBEPS, the Belgian UFO Society, was writing a book. The
book has just come out, and the good news is it is chock full of OUTSTANDING
photographs and video stills of the famous triangle - not just lights in the
sky, but ANOMALOUS TRIANGULAR OBJECTS in broad daylight. The bad news is, its
all in French. CUFOS is looking for a few good translators, and I volunteered
to put the word out on ParaNet. I know I've seen German and Spanish spoken
here, and I think French as well. They would like to send out several chapters
rather than the whole book, as its 500 pages, and that's a bit much. Any
volunteers?

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Paranet 9600 Bps
Date: 28 Oct 91 04:33:00 GMT

Hi Michael,
  You certainly did use considerable restrain in describing Aileen
Edwards' "publication."  I have seen articles in The Missing Link
(which she sent to me for about a year, at no request from me!) that I
know were lifted from UFO Clipping Service (because I get that).  The
contactee and channelled garbage made me sick.  All I got to say for
those folks is:  their straw doesn't go  all the way to the bottom of
their cups!

Avoid those people,

Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: SHC
Date: 27 Oct 91 06:39:23 GMT

In a message to Robert Trevelyan <24 Oct 91 21:59> Keith Basterfield wrote:

 KB> Re spontaneous human combustion, I would recommend the following:-
 KB> Harrison, Michael. (1990). "Fire from Heaven." Skoob books.
                         ^^^^

Must be a new edition. I read that at least 5 years ago.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Crop Circle Skepticism - Cross-post
Date: 29 Oct 91 20:32:46 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

From: Stan <[e-mail]>
Subject:      T.T. Brown, etc.
X-To:         [e-mail]
To: Multiple recipients of list SKEPTIC <SKEPTIC@YORKVM1>

I think that the mere existence of a patent is not reason to believe that
an idea is true.  This is certainly the case with the numerous U.S. patents
for perpetual motion machines.  In any event, I have never heard of any
evidence that electricity can affect gravity.  I think that if nothing more
was heard of Mr. Brown's research it is because he was being ignored, not
suppressed.  Stories of suppressed 'miracle' inventions are the stuff of
urban legends.

In a lighter vein, there was a one day conference last weekend here in Austin,
sponsored by MUFON (Mutual UFO Network).  This is a group that is based in
Seguin, TX, which is also the home of Forrest Mims, the creationist who wanted
to write the 'Amateur Scientist' column for _Scientific American_.  Anyway,
MUFON's topic du jour was 'What are the Crop Circles Trying to Tell Us?'.
The event was reported unskeptically in the local paper as a major mystery.
There was only passing mention of the English fellows who recently admitted
to making the crop circles.  This coverage was rather surprising, since the
same paper had several lengthy articles about them just a few weeks ago.
Anyway, the MUFON people do not believe this story.  So they fleeced people
for $16 a head to hear their 'experts' discuss their theories about the
origin and meaning of the crop circles.  I could have told everyone that
their meaning is clear--they are telling us not to be gullible...

Also, does anyone know if there is a mailing list for urban legends?

Stan Schwarz




********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 496

                           Friday, November 1st 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Translators...
                                   Ogden Gifs
                                   TV Show...
                                     "Angel"
                                  Dr. Levengood
                                  Crop Circles
                              Jupiter as Second Sun
                             Spon. Human Combustion
                                   Tv Show...
                              Re: Pysch hypotheses
                                    Re: ANGEL
                          Re: WEIRD NIGHT ON HALLOWEEN
                                 Re: OGDEN GIFS
                                Dr. Fredrick Bell
                                Dr. Fredrick Bell
                                 Ball Lightning
                              Possible FTL signals
                                Paranet 9600 Bps
                            Fragments of information
                              Jupiter as Second Sun
                                 Translators...
                             Re:Heard on the Street

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wc.novell.com!markb
Subject: Translators...
Date: 30 Oct 91 01:59:19 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Mark Burnham)

Hello Folks,

I've been on the ParaNet list for a few months and have really enjoyed reading
everyone's postings.  I've been quite passive about posting myself basically
because I just don't know too much about this stuff!

Anyway, I read Jim's post about a Belgian book coming out and a sort of
'call for translators'.  My French is OK (used to be better!) and I
wouldn't mind translating some of it for CUFOS.  It sounds like really
interesting stuff!

Just let me know who I should contact, and I'll see what I can do.

Thanks!

-Mark Burnham
Software Engineer, Novel Inc.
[phone]- work
[phone]- home




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Ogden Gifs
Date: 30 Oct 91 03:51:00 GMT

I have the Ogden gifs here for D\loading if anyone wants them.. They are the
ones that I here Peggy Noonan and Linda Bird talking on alot lately..  Not the
best but they will show something..

                Mike Keithly

--
ParaNet(sm)Alpha Sysop. - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: TV Show...
Date: 29 Oct 91 15:13:24 GMT

In a message to All <27 Oct 91 23:14> Jim Dritsas wrote:

 JD> So what do you all think?   How about your opinions about Robert
 JD> Lazar?  I have read a few text files with his interview on
 JD> KLAS-TV in Las Vegas with George Knapp, and I must admit, I
 JD> really beleive this guy is telling the truth.  He looks like a
 JD> sincere, and honest (not to mention intelligent) person.  I
 JD> really fail to see how a person like this can be making up a pile
 JD> of lies on the subject.
 JD>

Jim:

Please suspend your belief in Mr. Lazar until you've looked at some of the
facts..

FACT: Lazar's claims about Element 115, which he says S-4 scientists isolated
from materials aboard the saucers, do not stand up to even the most rudimentary
inspection.

FACT: Lazar's memory of the details of 115 are so spotty as to be nearly
impossible from a physicist. The first thing a physicist would do is memorize
the Atomic weight of any newly-discovered element.

FACT: Lazar claims to have secreted some 115 in his home, yet it has
mysteriously disappeared. (If you had some of the most valuable material on
Earth, would you hide it in your home? Or would you immediately take out a
safety deposit box?)

FACT: Lazar claims to have walked up to Edward Teller, the greatest living
nuclear physicist, and simply been handed a job. Not possible.

FACT: Lazar's background does indeed seem a mystery. No school or institution
has ever heard of him.

FACT: Lazar provided a W-2 form listing as an employer a non-existent branch
of the government, with a non-existent employer ID #.

FACT: Lazar does indeed appear in the Los Alamos phone directory.

FACT: Lazar is known to have been associated with John Lear prior to his
coming forward. Lear is a former CIA employee who is known to have spread
questionable information for what seem to be disruptive purposes.

FACT: Instead of being a wild-eyed, rabid mega-mouth or a self-proclaimed UFO
guru, Lazar is in fact a highly credible-sounding gentleman, almost a
boy-next-door type whom anyone would believe in a flash.

I am not by any means telling you to ignore Mr. Lazar. On the contrary, pay
extra close attention to him. In him I believe you will see the most blatant
evidence for the UFO cover-up. Skeptics always ask, how could the government
possibly keep such a thing secret? The answer is that they don't. They realize
they can't, so they "hide it in plain sight." Mr. Lazar is, I believe, a false
flag, someone who is purposely planted (whether knowingly or not, I don't know)
to gain the confidence of ufologists, and who then can be shot down by skeptics
who can point to his criminal record (a most convenient contrivance - only the
2nd man in Clark County history to be convicted of pandering), his easily
falsified claims, and his lack of provenance. The result is that if someone
else were to come forward for real, say, from Tejon Ranch or possibly
Kwadjelein, no one is going to believe them. "Oh sure, just like that Lazar
guy, right?"

In short, they've got you watching the birdie. Keep your eye on the cat.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: "Angel"
Date: 30 Oct 91 04:52:00 GMT

Hi Keith,

I haven't had any luck so far with the source of your "angel of revelation"
reference. I have posted a response below from Alan Seeger, who is
extremely well versed in both the old and new testament, and can find
nothing that matches your associate's recollection. I'll let you know if
I come up with anything further.

Sheldon

From: ALAN SEEGER *BIBLE ECHO*
  To: SHELDON WERNIKOFF
Subj: RE: BIBLICAL REFERENCE - ANGEL OF REVELATION

Regarding the "angel of revelation" touching the elected three times on
the forehead (sorry, no quote facilities available here)
I do not recall any such passage. Checking my Bible concordance program
(WordSearch 2.1 NIV) I find no match on a request for "angel," and
"three," that comes close to this at all. Sorry.

-=Alan=-
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Dr. Levengood
Date: 30 Oct 91 04:53:00 GMT


 To: [e-mail] (Cassandra)

 Cassandra,

 You can reach Dr. Levengood in Michigan at 517-522-4765
 Please advise him that Sheldon Wernikoff and Michael Chorost
 suggested you contact him with your request for crop circle
 material.

 Please keep me informed as to your results.

 Thanks,

 Sheldon

--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Crop Circles
Date: 28 Oct 91 12:24:00 GMT



Hello John,

I think we'll be seeing a great deal of significant new
discoveries and innovative research re: the circles effect. In the
past few days, I've been contacted by a molecular biologist from
the University of Illinois whose expertise is in the area of DNA,
protein, and nucleic acid manipulation. He would like to obtain
samples of lyophylized CC plant material for analysis.
Additionally, a cereal chemist whose specialization lies in the
field of electron microscopy, also net-mailed me for samples of the
"malformed" seeds Dr. Levengood described. I will do all I can to
assist these individuals in acquiring material for their work.

It is encouraging to note that these professionals are coming
forward despite all the talk of "hoax", and the potential of
ridicule by their peers. Obviously, they feel confident enough in
their convictions that there is "something" to the phenomenon, and
are willing to take that risk. I maintain my view that they shall
be proven to be correct in their beliefs. I don't mean to infer
that we're necessarily dealing with UFO's or a "superior
intelligence", but I don't think it's the Energizer bunny either,
to borrow a hypothesis from Rick Moen.

One beneficial effect that has occurred since Bower and Chorley
came on the scene, is that only the "true scientists", and "true
believers" seem to remain. The diminished publicity level should
actually have a propitious effect on those specialists conducting
legitimate exploration. Thanks Doug and Dave!

One writer on another echo queried if anyone has done any Kirlian
photography studies on CC plants. Not to my knowledge, but I am
examining the possibility. This technique certainly could yield
some intriguing results, and possibly provide us with another means
of ascertaining authentic formations.

I will continue to do my best to keep you informed on the latest
developments, and appreciate the opportunity to facilitate the
understanding of a most complex and elusive curiosity.

 Thanks,

 Sheldon


--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Jupiter as Second Sun
Date: 28 Oct 91 06:15:00 GMT


 >
 > Aha!  I just remembering reading in a  "National Geographic"
 > some years ago in a special issue called "The Planets" that
 > "Jupiter could have been a second sun, but that its nuclear
 > fires were never ignited."  If it had, I guess we'd be a binary
 > solar system.  I'll see if I can find that magazine.

Hi linda,
Thanks for that info. I'd love to see that article.
Regards,
Vlad

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Spon. Human Combustion
Date: 29 Oct 91 08:01:00 GMT


 >  Amazingly, there are still many physicists who insist that ball
 > lightning can not exist, despite many eye-witness reports, and a
 > few photographs.

Sheldon,
It is really amazing that there are still many physicist who insist
that ball lightning cannot exists.

I remember when, many years ago, a guy phoned me (people report all
sorts of strange phenomena to a UFO organization) and reported seeing
a green ball, about three feet in diamater, forming at the base of an
electricity pole in front of a house (on the opposite side of his
street) while he was actually watching it. He phoned me a few seconds
after the ball appeared and he kept looking through his lounge window
and reporting what was happening. The ball was an acquamarine green
color and transparent because, he said, he could see the electricity
pole and house behind it. The ball was stationary and eventually
disappeared after 30 seconds.

If my memory serves me right, there was a short thunderstorm during
or before this incident.

Vlad

--
Vladimir Godic - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Dritsas)
Subject: Tv Show...
Date: 31 Oct 91 07:12:00 GMT

Regarding your reply to me about Robert Lazar, I must admit you
brought up some good points.  Although, I am basically assuming that
he must have worked at this secret base he claims, thats all.  The
fact no one knows about him, and that he 'officially' does not exist
could be due to the fact that people in power who don't want him
talking simply 'erased' him from computer recordsa here and there.
Not a hard thing to do you know.

  Anyways, I don't know what to beleive in these days, you know. We
have to beleive something. Of course if you find flaws in Mr. Lazars
credibility, you might as well admit, you can find flaws in EVERY
PERSON who claims to know any SENSITIVE data regarding this topic.
What do you think about William Moore, or John Lear's stories?  They
are quite astonishing. But I guess if you really try, you can also
say the same stuff about them too - they could be working for the
government spreading disimformation. Who knows, who knows what the
TRUTH REALLY IS...

Jim D.
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Pysch hypotheses
Date: 26 Oct 91 03:25:09 GMT

Hi Keith,
   Thank you for your message and keep plugging away at your research.  You
are right -"loads of research needed!"
   Sorry to have dropped off line for 4 days.  Classes started again on
Tues/Thurs evenings, and my visitor from Germany was winding down his stay here
so I couldn't just run off and disappear (in the computer room).
    Will keep in touch,

       Linda

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: ANGEL
Date: 28 Oct 91 18:23:49 GMT

Well I checked Forehead, Revelation, and Elected. Nothing matches at all, or
even a stretched match. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.
I started on Three but found it was pages long. Good luck with your hunt.
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: WEIRD NIGHT ON HALLOWEEN
Date: 30 Oct 91 18:19:05 GMT

I recorded the show, but have not taken the time to watch it yet. Had the
lady from acroos the street over for a nip or two (gin for those who think
otherwise <grin>) If anyone wants to come to Milwaukee and help paint and
stain, I have many hours of Arthur C. Clarke and UFO specials. 8*)

From the assorted reviews, it's supposed to be general, but that's good for
showing to people who don't read this type of information on a daily basis.
Tax time again, gotta run.
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: OGDEN GIFS
Date: 30 Oct 91 18:24:00 GMT

Are the gifs available for File Request?
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Subject: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 18 Oct 91 00:25:00 GMT

Hallo John!

In a msg of <05 Oct 91>, John Burke writes to Clark Matthews:

 JB> I've ever read, BTW) which is written largely about Fred Bell, he is
 JB> described as a Chiropractor who used to walk around with a pyramid on

Yes... in the Video he has a pyramid on his head. He sells the head-pyramids
for 300DM ($200) in germany.
Here was another guy in Berlin, last week. He's speaking about ufo's and the
greys in USA: Virgil Armstrong. Did you know about him?

cheers
   Andre

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Subject: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 18 Oct 91 00:34:00 GMT

Hallo Steve!

In a msg of <08 Oct 91>, Steve Rose writes to Clark Matthews:

 CM>> Bell says that the USA and the so-called Grey aliens work
 CM>> together and intend to ignite Jupiter and use it as a second Sun.
 CM>> [Andre adds that whatever this may mean, he has it from a second
 CM>> source in Gulf Breeze,
 SR> Hmmm...somebody there show him a copy of "2010"?  ;-)

Yes, I've seen 2001 and 2010 but this information is from a video-tape from
Fred Bell. I can't believe the words of F.Bell, because it's suspect.

cheers
   Andre

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Ball Lightning
Date: 1 Nov 91 03:53:00 GMT



 Hi Vlad,

 Thanks for your comments re: the ball lightning observation.
 It's actually quite common for this phenomenon to be seen circa
 power lines, transformers, and utility towers, as your onlooker
 reported. (I'm not saying ball lightning is common, just that it
 has repeatedly been associated with the aforementioned locales.)

 I am also confident that a substantial number of UFO reports
 depicting BOL'S hovering over power lines, are in actuality
 misinterpreted ball lightning, or a related event.

 Thanks again,

 Sheldon

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Possible FTL signals
Date: 24 Oct 91 10:58:00 GMT

Hi, Korac!  Please bear with a long quote...

 >      I have read three articles in legitimate journals of
 > the microwave/RF
 > profession of efforts by a George Giakos and a Prof. T.
 > Koryu Isii of Marquette
 > University in Milwaukee describing successful transmission
 > of a radio wave
 > (non-TEM mode) at high frequency (from 8-10 Gigahertz) at
 > speeds exceeding the
 > normal intrinsic value 'c'.  As absurd as it sounds at the

[....]

 > velocity increased.  They report velocities of the pulses
 > up to 5.0 e+08 m/sec
 > which is faster than light's 3.0 e+08 m/sec.   My question
 > is, if light is not
 > going faster than its painstakingly defined value, what
 > kind of particle/wave
 > is making the antenna oscillate with the pulse?  Is it some
 > kind of super-
 > luminal pseudo-photon (the infamous tachyon), or what?   I
 > have heard nothing
 > about this research in the normal press (science news,
 > scientific american,
 > etc.).

This is *very* interesting...  Ever heard of Mirkl/Putoff "Scroll
Waves"?

These are hypothetical constructs from the "Zero-Point Energy"
theories.  What is interesting is that Dr. Putoff achieved
results similar to the ones you describe from an experiment that
used a chamber similar to the waveguide you described.

While Zero-Point Energy is really primarily concerned with
extracting energy from near vacuum conditions (and things like
the van der Waals forces & the Casimir effect), photon
augmentation is another aspect of the theory.  There's a rather
lengthy text file available at KeelyNet, Tom Albion's THC Online
BBS in Canada, and my BBS on low-energy ZPE phenomena & on
photon augmentation.  File name is ZPE5.ZIP.

You might find the whole ZPE series interesting, actually.

Best,
  Clark


PS -- Here's a sample:

[much stuff cut...]

       A vacuum between two sheets of metal is not the same as one that is
       unconstrained. Some of  the modes of the electromagnetic  field  are
       suppressed--the modes which  represent  waves  in the field that are
       too big to fit into the cavity.

       By changing the size of the cavity,  you  can  lose  certain  modes.
       Groups of scientists around the world have built cavities  that rule
       out certain modes  of  vacuum  energy,  and  thus  stop  atoms  from
       emitting photons at various wavelengths.

       Using a related technique, they have  designed  and  built  cavities
       that enhance the radiation by allowing the atom to  "see" more modes
       of the vacuum radiation than it would if there was no cavity.

       The results of   such   experiments   allow  scientists  to  explore
       otherwise inaccessible areas of quantum  electrodynamics, the theory
       of electromagnetic fields.

       An intriguing theoretical  point about the way that  atoms  interact
       with vacuum has  been  made  by  Dr Hal Puthoff of the Institute for
       Advanced Studies in Austin, Texas.

       For every atom there is an energy level below which the electrons
       cannot sink. Dr  Puthoff  suggests  that this is because, at the low
       energy levels, electrons cannot lose  energy  any  faster  than they
       pick it up from a vacuum.

       It is the  vacuum  energy  that  buoys them up, stopping  them  from
       losing all their energy and collapsing into the atomic nucleus.

       That means that  the  vacuum underpins the stability of every atom--
       and thus of almost all matter in the universe.

[stuff cut...]

           Jerry W. Decker.........Ron Barker...........Chuck Henderson
                             Vangard Sciences/KeelyNet

       --------------------------------------------------------------------
                     If we can be of service, you may contact
                 Jerry at [phone] or Ron at [phone]
       --------------------------------------------------------------------

                                      Page 4





   I got copies of the articles from the author, who
 > has an e-mail
 > address (maybe I can find it).   For reference, the
 > articles appear in:
 >
 >         Microwave and Optical Technology Letters, vol. 4,
 > No.2, Jan. 20, 1991
 > and          '           '       "         "      vol. 4,
 > No.3  Feb 1991
 >
 > as well as Microwaves and RF (magazine), August 1991, p.115
 >
 >
 >         I am not an expert in microwave physics, I deal
 > mainly in computer
 > programming for cosmic ray research, so I have no idea if
 > this has already
 > been shot down or is being ignored.   I can't find any
 > flaws in the math,
 > and don't know enough to make quantitative statements about
 > the experiments.
 > For what its worth, they claim the error is less than 0.1
 > %, small enough to
 > prove they are getting values of signal propagation > c.
 > Interesting at
 > any rate (no pun intended, but laugh if you want).  :)
 >
 >                                                 Korac
 > MacArthur
 >                                                 UNH Space
 > Science Center
 >
 > [e-mail]
 >

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Paranet 9600 Bps
Date: 28 Oct 91 02:33:00 GMT

Hi Michael,
  You certainly did use considerable restrain in describing Aileen
Edwards' "publication."  I have seen articles in The Missing Link
(which she sent to me for about a year, at no request from me!) that I
know were lifted from UFO Clipping Service (because I get that).  The
contactee and channelled garbage made me sick.  All I got to say for
those folks is:  their straw doesn't go  all the way to the bottom of
their cups!

Avoid those people,

Linda

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Fragments of information
Date: 26 Oct 91 02:11:00 GMT

David,

That's quite a post.

While I read it with interest, I feel compelled to say that without knowing
more about the sources and HOW you came upon this information, I have a very
hard time making any conclusions.  At this point, I'm very skeptical of ALL of
it.  If you are trying to help us out, we are going to need to know more so it
can be further investigated.

Doug Rogers
Echo Moderator

--
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From: [e-mail] (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Jupiter as Second Sun
Date: 28 Oct 91 04:15:00 GMT


 >
 > Aha!  I just remembering reading in a  "National Geographic"
 > some years ago in a special issue called "The Planets" that
 > "Jupiter could have been a second sun, but that its nuclear
 > fires were never ignited."  If it had, I guess we'd be a binary
 > solar system.  I'll see if I can find that magazine.

Hi linda,
Thanks for that info. I'd love to see that article.
Regards,
Vlad

--
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Translators...
Date: 31 Oct 91 16:32:00 GMT


 > Just let me know who I should contact, and I'll see what I can do.

 > Thanks!

 > -Mark Burnham


Thank you, Mark. Please contact Mark Rodeghier at the Center for UFO Studies
at 2457 W. Petersen Ave. Chicago, IL 60659, 312-271-3611. Tell 'em ParaNet
sent ya!

Any other takers? There's plenty of chapters, and the more people we get
working on it, the faster the book comes out in English! Let's show 'em why
computer networks get things done faster!

Jim Speiser

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: wc.novell.com!markb
Subject: Re:Heard on the Street
Date: 1 Nov 91 18:39:37 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Mark Burnham)

Jim,

I've been on the ParaNet list for a few months and have really enjoyed reading
everyone's postings.  I've been quite passive about posting myself basically
because I just don't know too much about this stuff!

Anyway, I read your post about a Belgian book coming out and a sort of
'call for translators'.  My French is pretty good (used to be better!) and I
wouldn't mind translating some of it for CUFOS.  It sounds like really
interesting stuff!

Just let me know who I should contact, and I'll see what I can do.

Thanks!

-Mark Burnham ([e-mail])
Software Engineer, Novell Inc.
[phone]




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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 497

                           Monday, November 4th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: Ogden Gifs
                            Re: Jupiter as Second Sun
                                   Meier Tapes
                                 AZ Mute Reports
                          Early Australian UFO history.
                                   Tv Show...
                                Dr. Fredrick Bell
                                    SETI BBS
                                     (none)
                    When the normal becomes the paranormal...
                                    AZ mutes
                                  "REVELATIONS"
                                  Re: FOX Show
                                   Re: Roswell
                             Re: The End of freedom
                                 Eschatology 101
                                  Re: UFO shows
                                Re: Crop Circles
                            Help Mr. Edis find books


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Ogden Gifs
Date: 2 Nov 91 05:31:00 GMT

Mike,
   Aren't those Ogden gif's you posted about the drawings I made of the
object and not gifs of the laser photocopies??  <got that??>

Thanks,
     Linda

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Jupiter as Second Sun
Date: 2 Nov 91 05:07:00 GMT

Hi Vlad,

 Thanks for jogoging my memory again on that article.  I'll look for it
this weekend.^^^^^  (that's supposed to be "jogging")  Ah, it's getting
late.......
   Say, do you folks down under receive a newspaper cartoon called
"Calvin & Hobbes?"  Its about a 6-yr old boy and his stuffed tiger
doll.   Anyway, cute cartoon in a cartoon book featuring these two
characters:  Calvin is walking with his tiger in the woods (the tiger
doll becomes a real tiger when no other people are present) and Calvin
says, "I was reading about how countless species are being pushed
toward extinction by man's destruction of forest."

Next frame, he continues, "Sometimes I think the surest sign that
intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it
has tried to contact us."

Interesting statement, don't you think?

Regards,
         Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Meier Tapes
Date: 2 Nov 91 05:36:00 GMT

Hi MIke,
    How's it going?  Was wondering if you've had a chance to make the
Meier tapes for me, or is there a snag?  If there is a problem, please
call me collect - I sent you my phone number.

Thanks,
    Linda


--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: AZ Mute Reports
Date: 2 Nov 91 05:26:14 GMT


This is a PRELIMINARY report on a series of cattle mutilations that have taken
place in Cochise County, AZ. So far 11 head of cattle have fallen victim over
the past few months. The most recent incident took place last week in a town
outside Sierra Vista. The images shown on local television depicted a cow with
its neck slit and its udders and genitals removed. It was a bit hard to tell
from the TV pictures, but the wounds did not seem to be of the "classic"
variety, i.e. laser-sharp edges, etc.

Today I spoke with Det. Mike Raffity of the Cochise County Sheriff's Office.
Raffity told me that a strong lead had been developed linking the incidents
with a Satanic cult in the area. Although he did not personally see the animal
shown on TV, he told me that the wounds were made with a sharp instrument but
were not laser-precise, nor were there any other strange or tell-tale clues
that paranormalists look for. He seemed to have been recently given a crash
course on "classic mutilations" by way of phone calls from around the country,
possibly including one from Linda Howe. Raffity also told me that reports of
"total" exsanguination were just media exaggeration. The cow probably had 1 or
2 pints left out of the normal 4 gallons or so.


-+-----------------
--MUSING MODE ON

Raffity would not, of course, divulge the nature of his lead, but I raised the
question with him as to whether this were the first time a strong lead had been
developed linking a mute with a Satanic cult. He seemed surprised at this, and
told me that they've found cow's heads suspended from Satanic altars, and they
know that cow's blood is used for a purification ceremony. This raises the
question in my mind: Is our treatment of "classic" mutes as something different
from cult activity based purely on the degree of the precision of the cuts, and
the degree of exsanguination? Or is Raffity missing something major here? Or am
I? Sure, I know there are other signs, lack of tracks, etc., but if Raffity is
correct, and Satanic activity CAN account for SOME mutes, why can't they
account for all of them?

Jim

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail]
Subject: Early Australian UFO history.
Date: 1 Nov 91 06:22:00 GMT

For anybody interested in the history of the Australian UFO
controversy up to and including 1959, please see my entery
in Jerry Clark's UFO Encyclopedia Volume 2, "Emergence of a
Phenomenon", which is due out in about November.  Jerry
bought the manuscript of Vol. 2 with him in his Australian
visit during September.  It looks like a gold mine of
information.
Regards from Bill Chalker.

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Tv Show...
Date: 2 Nov 91 06:41:47 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <31 Oct 91 00:12> Jim Dritsas wrote:

 JD> knows, who knows what the TRUTH REALLY IS...

There's the rub, alright....


As to Moore and Lear, the former has admitted to having aided and abetted
government disinformation activities, and the latter is a known former CIA
operative. So when we cast aspersions on their credibility, we're not just
whistling "Dixie."

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Dr. Fredrick Bell
Date: 2 Nov 91 16:26:00 GMT

Hi, Andre!

In a message to John Burke <17 Oct 91 17:25> Andre Eichner wrote:

 AE> Yes... in the Video he has a pyramid on his head. He sells the
 AE> head-pyramids for 300DM ($200) in germany.

Nur 300DM?!  Spottbillig um 600DM!!!   :-)  [Cheap at twice the price]

Bin neugirig, braucht mann einem Spitz am Scheitel einen zu tragen?
[do I need a point on my head to wear one?]  :-(

 AE> Here was another guy in Berlin, last week. He's speaking about
 AE> ufo's and the greys in USA: Virgil Armstrong. Did you know about him?

Virgil Armstrong?  Never hear of him.  Please tell us more -- it's very enteresting to hear about the

goings-on in Europe.

Could you tell us how much Fred Bell charges for his lectures there?

Best,
  Clark


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: kirk!ge-dab.ge.com!ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!MX%carr
Subject: SETI BBS
Date: 3 Nov 91 19:52:25 GMT

From: 'MX%\'carr@kirk\""@ASTRO.dnet.ge.com


There's a new 9600 Baud BBS at [phone], which intends to focus
primarily on SETI.  Though not set up yet, they plan to have a UFO
conference as well.  They are looking for amateur astronomers who want to
participate in optical SETI.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 3 Nov 91 20:31:29 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


Subject:  When the normal becomes the paranormal...

I thought I'd share a quick calculation that anyone can do.

First, a little background.  I was taught in high school
biology that people move, jump, breathe, etc. by flexing
muscles and that these muscles obtain the energy to do
this unremarkable work from food energy which we eat.
So, in order for our body to do work, we must burn food
energy in a similar manner to a steam engine burning coal.

We count this food energy in calories.  The body stores the
extra energy if one does less work than one ingests in the
form of food energy.  The FDA recommended daily allowance of
food energy for a male is about 3000 calories per day.

In physics class, energy is described in simple terms as being of
two forms, potential (PE) and kinetic (KE).  If you take a ball and
lift it off the ground, you increase its potential energy by doing
work against the apparent pull of gravity.  In an ideal world with
no friction and perfect energy conversion, the amount of work
required to lift the ball would equal the potential energy gained
by the ball.  When the ball is released, this potential energy is
changed into kinetic energy, the energy of motion.  The velocity at
the moment that the ball hits the ground from which it was lifted
can be found by conservation of energy principles,

                          PE  =  KE

                                        2
                       m g h  =  1/2 m v

where m is the mass of the ball, g is the acceleration due to gravity,
h is the height to which the ball was raised, and v is the velocity
at the point of impact with the ground.

Now let us do a homework problem.

It is quite easy for a backpacker hiking in Yosemite to gain
2000 feet (approximately 600 meters) in altitude in a single day.
An average-build male carrying about a 50-pound pack weighs about
100 kilograms.  The acceleration due to gravity, assuming it
constant over the range of altitudes walked, is
9.8 meters/second^^2, or about 10.  Thus, the potential energy
gained by the backpacker and his pack is,
                                                               5
   PE  =  m g h  =  (100 kg) * (10 m/s2) * (600 m)  =  6.0 x 10  Joules

There are about 4 Joules/calorie so a backpacker can easily gain
about 1.5 x 10^^5 calories in potential in a single day--to say
nothing of the work done to walk, talk, breathe, drink/eat, digest
during the day.  This is 50 times the work available in the potential
energy of the food eaten during an average day.  What is going on here?
Where does all this extra energy come from?

When I first discussed this with friends, the response was that the
mitochondria store energy.  But a backpacker can go weeks in the back
country hiking up and down peaks, walking, sweating, taking pictures--all
requiring human effort and energy.  Many people have fasted for weeks
or months while still being as active as when they ate regularly.  How
much energy can be stored in the mitochondria, I don't know, but
that argument doesn't satisfy me.

Am I missing something?
Do you and I break the laws of physics every day of our lives?
Does that mean every motion we make is paranormal?

Greg ([e-mail])





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: AZ mutes
Date: 3 Nov 91 20:58:00 GMT

In a message to all <01-Nov-91> Jim Speiser wrote:

JS> This raises the question in my mind: Is our treatment of
JS> "classic" mutes as something different from cult activity based
JS> purely on the degree of the precision of the cuts, and the
JS> degree of exsanguination? Or is Raffity missing something major
JS> here? Or am I? Sure, I know there are other signs, lack of
JS> tracks, etc., but if Raffity is correct, and Satanic activity
JS> CAN account for
JS> SOME mutes, why can't they account for all of them?

Hi Jim,

John Altshuler, M.D. presented a paper at the Chicago MUFON
symposium entitled "Tissue Change in Unexplained Animal
Mutilations". The proceedings are available for $20.00 from MUFON,
103 Oldtowne Road, Seguin, TX 78155-4099. What follows are his
conclusions re: the cattle mutilations.

"Gross examination of unexplained animal mutilation deaths suggest
that these animal deaths were not caused by accidental death,
predation or cult sacrifices. Microscopic tissue examinations have
been extensively compared to known human tissue changes secondary
to high heat. It is difficult to avoid the inescapable conclusion
that the changes in animal tissues in these unexplained deaths had
dissection with an instrument causing high heat. By what
instrumentation and means this is accomplished remains a mystery.
for what purpose is even more enigmatic. The fact that these
animals are found in remote areas, away from human or animal
tracks, off roads and away from highways, found within hours of
having been seen alive at a time of unusual observed aerial
phenomena all suggest that extraterrestrial factors must be
considered as a plausible explanation of the ever increasing
numbers of unexplained animal mutilations."

I'd sure like to hear what some other pathologists have to say
about Altshuler's conclusions....some of the non-ET, non-cult
hypotheses. I've never seen anything in print anywhere. Has
Skeptical Inquirer ever done anything that you know of? I really
found your post of their PR on NDE's thought provoking. BTW, did
you know that the leading cause of "accidental" death in cattle is
electrocution by lightning?

I am certain that Satanic activity does account for some mutes,
just as hoaxers account for some CC's, but many cases in both areas
remain unexplained to my satisfaction.

Take care,

Sheldon

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: "REVELATIONS"
Date: 4 Nov 91 05:10:00 GMT

I just received Jacques Vallee's newest book "REVELATIONS" from Ballantine
Books and read a great deal of it this weekend. Yes, in my opinion Vallee
will once more stand the UFO field on its collective head.

Vallee, probably one of the most gifted and intelligent researchers, has cut
a wide swath through the UFO arena. Many UFOlogists are not going to like
what Vallee has to say about research and investigators this time around.
Folks like Bill Moore, Stan Friedman, John Lear, Bob Lazar, Wendelle Stevevs,
Linda Howe, Bilkum Cooper, etc. have been subjected to Vallee's critical
analysis and reasoning and according to Jacques they have come up very short.
Roswell? Well according to Vallee just because it has been investigated, it
ain't necessarily so. For example people always quote Jesse Marcel when he
described the debris. Well, according to Vallee:

"The material recovered in the crash
itself, while it remains fascinating, was not necessarily beyond human
technology in the late Forties. ALUMINIZED SARAN, also known as SILVERED
SARAN, came from technology already available for laboratory-scale work in
1948. It was paper-thin, was NOT DENTED by a hammer blow, and was restored to
a smooth finish after crushing."  REVELATIONS page 83.

No, I would guess that many people in the UFO field will not take kindly to
Vallee's assessment of the flying disks and the people that chase them. What
will be interesting however, is to see how long it takes before many people
are screaming that "Vallee must be a government plant". That seems to be the
fate of anyone who breaks from the fold. I still think that he is one hell
of a researcher, and I do NOT agree with all his conclusions, but I DO think
they are necessary.

Don Ecker

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: FOX Show
Date: 25 Oct 91 19:14:00 GMT


 JS> Fellow ParaNetters, be prepared for an onslaught of inquiries from
 JS> your friends and neighbors who never thought much about UFOs. All of a
 JS> sudden they're gonna be real interested, and that's good, but they're
 JS> gonna say to you, "Hey, what about that Lazr guy?", and that's bad.
 JS> Because as soon as they find out how squirrely his story is, they're
 JS> gonna be real disillusioned, and we may not get them back.
 JS> What a shame.

Jim,
I saw a blurb in USA Today, that the ratings were sooo high on that show
that a series is being considered.
Kay

--
Kay Mclaughlin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: Roswell
Date: 25 Oct 91 19:23:00 GMT


 SM> I am new to Paranet, but I have found nothing in this section about
 SM> Roswell, the most dramatic example of what is happening and the most
 SM> dramatic example of the government (almost) screwing up.  What am I
 SM> missing? ---

Steve,
Stick Around! It's a topic here, but not the Only one!
Regards,
Kay

--
Kay Mclaughlin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: The End of freedom
Date: 27 Oct 91 06:19:00 GMT


 CM> there are *so many* such American agencies -- most of them military,
 CM> so they can operate without restriction in the U.S. -- and they all
 CM> have classified, or "black" budgets.

Oh?  Never see much of that money ever make it to the lowly technical
levels.  Guess it must be another of those 'live at the top' scenarios.

 CM> the KGB apparatchiks *did not* follow their orders.  With a proud
 CM> history of 70 years of savage terrorism and repressionbehing them --
 CM> they couldn't bring themselves to live up to it!  Their instincts were
 CM> astonishingly humane.  Watching the coup fail was as gratifying

And I believe the local grunts can be counted on doing the same.  What
makes them any less capable of critical and/or humane judgement?  The old
addage, "_______ are people, too" seems to fit.

 CM> underlings may be incapable of conscious choice:  Remember the
 CM> disturbing little stories coming out of Groom Lake, Tejon Ranch, and
 CM> other places? -- you know, the stuff about guards "wh talked like
 CM> robots" and cadres of soldiers forced to drink "pine" while undergoing
 CM> indoctrination?  So bear with me a while longer, and let me use my

No more bizzarre or true an account that the popular 'Big Foot'
sightings of today.

 CM> Imagine these people being carefully vetted and then culled out of the
 CM> military manpower pool and directed to units where they can be turned
 CM> into human monstrosities that would make Stalin, Beria, and Hitler
 CM> envious.  Through careful concealment of fundig, total control of
 CM> certain geographic areas, absolute secrecy, and "perverted science" (a
 CM> fine old phrase originated by Churchill, to describe the Nazis), this
 CM> could be done.

Quite an imagination!  As they say nowadays..."Sell it to Hollywood."

 CM> So many of these people may not be able to help themselves.  In fact,
 CM> they may be beyond help entirely.

As you can tell...I don't take to that view at all.  I see bigger
attrocities being committed in full and open view of all...with no
attempt at any coverup.  I call it collecting taxes and blatent, crass
commercialism.  Two biggest ways a fool is parted from their money.

 CM> But the people on top?  They know exactly what they're doing.

How do you think they got there in the first place?

 CM> Depressed,

Don't be.  Just put in your 80+ years and check out like a true
champ.  We're not going anywhere, either.   ;-)



--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Dan Smith)
Subject: Eschatology 101
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:19:00 GMT


         I have a hard time remembering so many details, so I
    use a hypothetical "big picture" to help keep up with the
    information overload in the paranormal field and elsewhere.
    This is the only way for me to keep track of who's doing
    what to whom and why.  So now I'll tell you mine if you tell
    me yours!  What follows is an amalgamation from many
    sources.

         Since the plot is so thick, I start with Wm. S. in
    supposing that all the world is a stage.  The modest
    proposal is that we put Copernicus back in the dustbin, and
    trot out the cosmological anthropic principle backed up with
    the holographic metaphor to explain objective reality.  Yes,
    the starry skies are the shadows on the walls of our cave.
    No, the Apollo Project was not a Las Vegas hoax, but an
    example of using the quasi-magical powers of our technology
    to objectify the universe.  Our Midas touch helps to turn
    the orb of the moon into a sensory hologram we call a rock.

         Each star and galaxy is a link between the cosmic mind
    and our minds.  10 to the power of 10 (10^10) is the magic
    number of immensities.  Molecules -> Cell -> brain -> people
    (souls) on Earth -> stars in the Milky Way -> galaxies in
    the universe.  UFO's do not tank up on anti-matter and put
    the pedal to the metal, but rather they pierce the
    trans-dimensional, holographic veils of Bohm's "implicate
    order" back into the "explicate order" of Earth.  To say
    that they come from other stars is true only in a
    metaphorical sense.  I only restate the issue between the
    "nuts and bolts" ufologists and the paranormal types.  And
    which of us are the nuts?

         Continuing with the holographic metaphor, the earth
    could have been created out of a chaotic "dreamtime" by
    cooperating groups of spiritual adepts who gave form to our
    globe through a grid system of sacred sites and temples,
    with Egypt as H.Q., perhaps.  The earth and heavens
    gradually congealed into a form recognizable to us.  Science
    and technology have completed this process by coercing
    physical processes into rigid habitual patterns that we call
    the laws of physics.  From spiritual adept to scientist,
    there has been a nearly complete spiritual devolution.  A
    devolution facilitated, perhaps, by greater degrees of
    memory loss at birth, and by greater physical retraints on
    our paranormal abilities.

         The earth has served as melting pot, and provided basic
    training (boot camp style!) for some 10^10 souls.  The
    emphasis on this level of reality has been on developing
    individual consciousness, a la existentialism.  And now we
    have evolved about as far as we can go in the direction of
    materialism and individualism.  We are bursting the seams of
    our rigid yet fragile reality that we have helped to create.

         If reality truly is a combined projection of our minds
    and a cosmic mind, then we are aproaching an interesting
    situation.  Communication and biofeedback technology
    amplifies and focusses our global consciousness.  Paranormal
    phenomena can manipulate that process on a mass scale.  A
    potential for global psychokenesis is being unleashed.  What
    will be the threshhold or critical mass for gloabal effects,
    e.g. earth changes?  The strong anthropic principle of
    physics suggests a teleological omega point where a final
    singularity of consciousness is the quantum mechanical
    keystone for the world.  This will be the true big bang,
    against which the astrophysical big bang is only a sort of
    mirror image.  This scenario is radical, but at least it is
    preferable to the universal entropic heat death offered by
    science.

         Rather less earth-shaking is a proposal for a
    Singularity Early Warning Network (S.E.W.N.) that would be
    an informal network of paranormal investigators, fringe
    physicists, and concerned world citizens.  We would discuss
    patterns and trends relating the paranormal to current
    events and to eschatological scenarios.  Channeled sources
    would also be reviewed.  The participants would have to
    negotiate a delicate balance between information
    dissemination and rumor control.

         There is some urgency to put in place a S.E.W.N.,
    considering the inevitable enthusiasms surrounding the
    upcoming Christian millenium, which lend themselves to
    positive and negative exploitation by terrestrial and
    extra-terrestrial agents.

         As a case study consider the following:  A number of
    channeled sources are picking up on the Arguelles harmonic
    convergence time table for global transformation as running
    from 1987 to 2011-12.  Neatly bisecting this is the
    Nostradamian eclipse of 8-11-1999, that is centered over the
    eclipse predicting, crop circle infested, megalithic sites
    of southwestern England.  The situation calls for more
    investigation.  If nothing has materialized by that
    benchmark we can put the S.E.W.N. back on track for a longer
    haul.

         Well, I hope some others are willing to stick their
    necks out, so that we all might get a clearer view of the
    bigger picture(s).


 ... ----
--
Dan Smith - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Re: UFO shows
Date: 31 Oct 91 05:13:00 GMT


 -=> Quoting ncar!cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com!vanth to All <=-


 n> You mean this 'Beyond Reality' thing (what a stupid title!) is a
 n> series?  I saw an episode on psychic healing or some such thing (I
 n> taped it, but haven't watched it yet) advertised for last Friday, but I
 n> didn't know it was going to be a series.  Does anyone know what else
 n> they have in store for us?

I saw the episode Sheldon noted.  It was pathetically bogus.  These shows are
not even dramatic recreations like Unsolved Mysteries, they are labelled as
based on fact which means virtually nothing...

John.

 ... Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.
--
John Powell - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Powell)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles
Date: 31 Oct 91 05:58:00 GMT


 -=> Quoting Sheldon Wernikoff to John Powell <=-

Hi Sheldon, hope you're fine.

 SW> I think we'll be seeing a great deal of significant new
 SW> discoveries and innovative research re: the circles effect.

It seems as if that is happenning.  Being able to conclusively and repeatedly
determine a hoax from a true crop circle is step number 1.  If that means
sending samples to a lab and waiting a week then so be it.  Especially nice
is that we have about 6 months before the show starts again...

Step number 2 is creating a circle ourselves that will selectively pass or fail
the above testing...

 SW> It is encouraging to note that these professionals are coming
 SW> forward despite all the talk of "hoax", and the potential of
 SW> ridicule by their peers. Obviously, they feel confident enough in
 SW> their convictions that there is "something" to the phenomenon, and
 SW> are willing to take that risk. I maintain my view that they shall
 SW> be proven to be correct in their beliefs.

Well, the shameless media-presented (and sponsored by who knows...) ploy to
discredit the totality of the phenomenon with this single pathetic prank,
(which essentially amounted to just a personal attack on Delgado), might
have worked well in the past but things/people change.

I'd bet that there are many professional people who were quite willing to
ignore this phenomenon until their intelligence was insulted by that stupid
Dynamic Geezer Duo hoax...

 SW> One writer on another echo queried if anyone has done any Kirlian
 SW> photography studies on CC plants. Not to my knowledge, but I am
 SW> examining the possibility. This technique certainly could yield
 SW> some intriguing results, and possibly provide us with another means
 SW> of ascertaining authentic formations.

It just could/maybe/possibly/dunno yeild a quick & dirty, in the field,
way of determining whether or not a circle sample _should_ be sent for
further analysis...  I guess that could be important if the trend/scope
continues for next year's 'crop.'

 SW> I will continue to do my best to keep you informed on the latest
 SW> developments, and appreciate the opportunity to facilitate the
 SW> understanding of a most complex and elusive curiosity.

Sheldon, you're doing a terrific job!

John.

 ... Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.
--
John Powell - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: kirk!ge-dab.ge.com!ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!MX%carr
Subject: Help Mr. Edis find books
Date: 4 Nov 91 16:32:54 GMT

From: 'MX%\'carr@kirk\""@ASTRO.dnet.ge.com

To: Multiple recipients of list SKEPTIC <SKEPTIC@YORKVM1>
From: Taner Edis <[e-mail]>

 I've noticed that while I keep about half a shelf of
'skeptical' material around the house, I have practically none
advocating any of the points of view that tend to be criticized in
this discussion group.  This could leave me open to the charge that
I'm seeing only one side of the issue, and that getting my information
about ideas considered to be nonrational or pseudoscientific primarily
from sources admittedly critical of them was at least unbalanced.
While my opinion is that it is rather unlikely that skeptics are
engaged in misrepresentation or worse, occasionally experiencing
fringe arguments firsthand could still be useful.  However, the
difficulty is finding sources that are not a waste of time, and go
beyond simple naivete, questionable motives or plain sloppiness.
 So I'd like to ask if there are any suggestions for me to take
a look at some book or other.  It need not be convincing (that may be
setting standards that are too difficult to satisfy), but merely a
responsible and semirational defense of an alternative viewpoint.
 The local secondhand bookstores carry a fair amount of fringe
(not in terms of sales!) literature, but it's all Shirley MacLaine and
friends, so might just as well be called the `loony bin' (one store
does label the section as 'Wacky Phenomena').  So that's out.  I
should go through back issues of Skeptical Inquirer and see if any
book that might fit the bill has been reviewed, but I thought I'd
still see if participants of SKEPTIC could help me...

 * Creationism: Otherwise intelligent people defend it, so
maybe something is out there besides Morris & Co.  Any knowledge of a
creationist tract that does not depend on religion or other
metaphysical grumblings about 'materialism' etc.?  Denton's
'Evolution: A theory in Crisis' has been suggested, but from what I
know about it, it may not fit the bill.
 * Psychic phenomena: This should be promising, after all,
parapsychology can be said to be a borderline case between science and
pseudoscience.  Surely a decent book has been written by a
practitioner that does not insult ones intelligence.  There was a
recent book called something like 'Parapsychology: the Controversial
Science', but the jacket gave me the impression that it depended a lot
on the usual 'garbage in, garbage out' with elaborate statistics.
 * UFOlogy: I haven't seen a wide eyed UFO proponent book since
I was in that phase in high school.  Maybe there is something better
in existence, but I'm rather comfortable with the thought that I might
go through the rest of my life without reading another.
 * Others in the endless list....

 Thanks,   Taner Edis




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